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Ben Nadel
On User Experience (UX) Design, JavaScript, ColdFusion, Node.js, Life, and Love.

Big Girls Like Me

By Ben Nadel on

I am huge fan of people-watching and I tend to give everyone I pass on the sidewalk the "once over." I like to size everyone up and see what's interesting or attractive or weird or whatever about people... they are just really cool to look at; the human body is an amazing thing in both form and expression and in New York City especially, you really see some crazy stuff from time to time.

One of the things that I've noticed over the past few years is that girls in general just don't look at me. At least, not that I ever notice. And considering that I look at just about everyone, I would probably notice, right??? That's cool though; I'm a computer programmer who loves talking about sexy things like ColdFusion and SQL optimization (oh baby, that's hot), and as such, I don't much expect to be noticed by people of the female persuasion.

But, I have to say that the few times that I actually do make eye contact with the ladies, it is always ladies of a heftier nature. Apparently, I have the kind of look that appeals to woman of a thicker body type. That's cool with me - I am not judging; like I said, I find many body types attractive. This is just the trend that I have noticed.

It's funny, actually - right now, I live in Chelsea which is a very gay-oriented part of New York. Living there is kind of a double-edged sword for me. One the one hand, some of the guys actually check me out, and, while I don't orient that way, it is very flattering (considering that I pass unnoticed around woman). But, on the other hand, most of the gay guys around here are in just phenomenal physical shape! It's an odd feeling to walk down 8th Avenue and feel both more attractive and so completely unhealthy :)

Anyway, not really much to say on the topic - I'm not in a working mood at the moment and I thought I would put this down on paper. Although, now that I think about it, friends of mine usually accuse me of liking "chubby" women. If that is true, maybe it's because subconsciously I feel more attracted to the girls who seem to find me more attractive??? I haven't taken a biology class in years, but that's probably some sort of evolutionary adaptation to help ensure that I pass my genes on to the next generation.... the human Animal is just amazing!


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Tweet This Great article by @BenNadel - Big Girls Like Me Woot woot — you rock the party that rocks the body!

Reader Comments

believe me when I tell you that a little fluff on a women is WAAAAY better then a skinny girl. Skinny girls hurt hips, if you know what I mean. Now personally I was not the one to date an overly obese girl, but she did have to have enough on her.

Well hey Ben, it certainly goes both ways! As a CF programmer myself, I have that "geek grrl" look, what with wearing glasses and having a body you can only get from being at a computer all day, and I certainly don't get much interest from the male persuasion. Too bad, since I think I have way more in common with most guys than the typical "hot chicks" types!

HAHA! Thanks Ben! Thought I would see what the latest news was on CF but your post grabbed me...had a laugh instead. It's funny how it all ties in. Just watched this anime series my brother has been going on about for ages. A cheezy 90's series called Golden Boy (no not the Eddie Murphy one...The One). Don't really watch much...of anything but it one out over doing my tax returns. Anyway, it's about a student of life...who is always checking out chics...ok, I'm wasting my time explaining this but the parallel between your post made it even funnier.
And yes, humans are fun to watch...I sometimes wonder what it would be like to be one...
Well,thanks for the 'rounded' blogging.


I am with you on that :) Too skinny looks unhealthy. Certainly, I find a whole spectrum of shapes and sizes attractive.

@Mary Jo,

I guess we are never alone in these things. Not sure if that is a happy thing or a sad thing :) To make matters worse, I also don't drink, smoke, sing or dance... of course I do love to sing, but mostly when no one else can hear ;) If it makes you feel any better, Flickr has a "Geek Girls Are Sexy" pool. Not sure how many of the qualify as true "geek girls", but I appreciate that at least the sentiment is out there.


Glad you could laugh at my life... just kidding, always glad to entertain. I have been trying to keep my non-technical posts to the weekend, so check back if you like.

Tip for all geeks guy:

If you're dying to meet women and need to get in shape, join yoga, forget the gym or clubs. Trust me on this. I did yoga hardcore for about 2 years and still do it now from time to time (marriage gets in the way), Anywho, all I can say is that I was 1 of 3 guys in the class with about 20 other women. Needless to say I had the pick of the crop. Believe me, the women were hot, intelligent and extremely nice. Basically everything you're looking for in a women. Plus I lost a lot of weight doing it (60 lbs in 3 months). The added benefit on the programming side is that it relaxes the hell and relieves all your stress; with a clearer head you can program more efficient.

maybe it's because subconsciously I feel more attracted to the girls who seem to find me more attractive?

That's an interesting observation/point...


While I agree 100% that that is probably a great place to meet women, I almost have to say I would be more excited about the benefits of Yoga :) Sitting behind a desk all day, almost every day, I am one stiff-jointed man! Even as someone who works out (when I can), my flexibility is garbage.

I've been working out regularly 3-4 times a week since April last year. It's really become an addiction for me and I just love it. I don't think the women notice me more, maybe if I sport the mini mohawk I got while in NYC last time but at least women who did know me before pay a lot more attention since I've lost so much weight. I want to continue trying some new things in the workout area and Yoga is one of them.

Ben, if you ask me women with a bit of meat on them is quite nice. I'd rather grab a solid woman than one thin as a pencil. For example, just yesterday I saw a photo of Nicole Richie. Cute face and all but god what a hideous body. I don't like to judge but you got to look out after yourself health wise and she clearly isn't. I love taking a woman out to eat that actually eats her food! I love too cook. A woman who does not eat is simply unattractive.

But now that you mention big girls liking you the first image that came into my mind was from the Borat movie, where he falls for an overly large sized prostitute. Ben... I'm disappointed in you. :)

Everyone always talks about Yoga so I'm quite excited about the benefits myself. I've enjoyed working out a lot but I know you got to keep changing your routines and not only that but simply trying new things to keep the interest there.

I agree Ben, I have a hard time now sitting in front of a PC because I love being active. After lunch today I'm heading out to play soccer. What I do to help me out at work and also has helped me keep my weight the same ever since I've lost it (never gained a pound back!) is I go out for a 30 minute walk everyday. Instead of going out to lunch like the guys do, pigging out on all you can eat buffets every week I eat my own cooked food and then for lunch I go on a walk. It pays off.


I am with you on that one. I did not mean for this post to come across as me not liking bigger girls in any way. To the contrary, if there is anything that I don't like, it's girls like you are talking about - Nicole Richie - who just look absolutely revolting.

Dude, if you move to NY, we should hit the gym together sometime.

Hilarious! We seem to be pretty similar. I'm a people watcher too and I always wondered why thinner girls don't check me out like the bigger girls do. Ever notice that when a hot girl is alone she won't do this, but in groups they do? Or if you are with your really attractive girlfriend they check you out? Hot girls always get leered at and approached for a phone number, email, etc. So whether it is conscious or not, hot girls often avoid eye contact or checking you out in order to avoid being approached for a date. They are just avoiding uncomfortable situations like having to say no to you. Hotties in a group, or if you're with your girlfriend gives them security, so they will check you out. Watch for this, I'll bet you noticed them looking then. The same is true for attractive guys too. Ever find yourself trying to avoid eye contact with bigger girls? I do, but sometimes being the people watcher that I am, I stare at them too, and I tell you, I never get stared back at like such a piece of meat and then followed. But, if you want to have some social experimenting fun with the hot girls who are trying to avoid your eye contact, get in her way as you pass by and give her a big ornery grin! They will be more be more willing to check you out when you are smiling and not leering at her with a straight faced psycho stalker look. It's good fun!


Ha ha ha, dynamite commentary :) I will have to try some of that some time. When it comes to people watching, I only have a few rules:

1. Try not to linger on a girl who is with her boyfriend (he won't like it and neither would I if it was reversed).

2. Don't look too creepy (straight faced psycho stalker).

3. If you see two or more girls are walking together, check out the least attractive one (who knows, it might just make her day cause she probably knows she is walking about with more attractive girls).

Other than that, I just have fun. Never gotten up in anyone's face though, not sure I would have the courage for that move :)

LOL! Better add one to that list.

4. Girls who appear younger than 18 and are with their father!

I had a pal who always got busted on that one! Man, if those father's glares could kill, he'd be dead a hundred times over. Brings back memories of me and my pals watching Scotty walk through a room with the most debonair bounce to his step checking out every single girl in the most obvious way and getting busted every time! Just hilarious to watch!

You can count on it Ben! I go to the gym with some friends since my apartment has a 24 hour fitness center. It's not that big but it has what you need. It pays off going with friends since they help you keep that schedule. Since they don't live in the apartment complex they can't go but I can let them in. This keeps me from getting lazy on 1 or so of the 4 workout days. But regardless I'll go on my own and be there for almost 2 hours. The effort into working out feels great when you can outrun all your friends in soccer. :)


I think that the girls that get the most attention (and most of it unwanted) by guys tend to be on the defensive. As a teenager they learn to look forward and avoid eye contact. They learn that if you make eye contact with the wrong man, he's gonna start talking to you and asking you on a date. He could be a handsome guy, but a complete loser. So, it's best not to make eye contact until you are in a situation where he can be considered safe. For instance, at a party, you are likely to find people of a similar nature. The eye contact will prevalent there, especially if she is attracted to you.

So, for hot women, they have made it a learned behavior. The more attractive the woman by society's standards, the more fiercely she is going to stare forward. For women that don't get as much attention, they are willing to look around and take the risk.

Finally, girls can check guys out and make a decision before we've even seen the girl. They've got eagle eyes and can catalogue our appearances in no time. We have to sit there and oogle.

Once married, this is still useful, as women catalogue everything around the house so that you can always ask where your blue shirt with the ColdFusion logo is.

Agreed there with most of you guys.. not into skinny girls :D... and wow you last 60 lbs in 3 months that is awsome + lot of other benifits (more girls) should join the class ASAP :).

Hi there! Just go out and pickup all women which you'll met.
Computer is not important side of your life. Don't sit at one place.
Go out!!!

i dont think that you attract bigger girls. i think the thing is, that most bigger girls dont get looked at. so when they see a guy looking at them they look back.

I think that pic is so attracive.. i am a 185 pound cutt model that is what most guys would envy and I don't understand why you say that pic is thick? It's hot, but not "bigger"

this is an interesting post. I have a few comments/suggestions. First, I think you are right on with the thing about being attracted to people who are attracted or seem attracted to you. My biggest problem with this method so far has been me mis-reading guys attraction to me or level of attraction to me. lol. I was in a Web Development class, and, as some of you have mentioned, avoiding contact with most of the class, just trying to make the grade and get through. (and at the time trying to avoid hooking up, as I didn't want any distractions as I finished my schooling). However, I did not succeed at not getting interested in anyone, as there was a guy in that class who was absolutely staring me down. I mistook this for interest and attraction, and became very attracted to him as a result of me mistaking this staring me down for interest, added with the fact that he was the smartest guy in the class. (He was the ONLY guy in the entire school to beat me grade-wise). To me, this was a huge turn-on, and I liked the fact that he was smart, but without the assumed interest, I would not have noticed him. Yeah, what they say about assuming sure was true in this case!

I honestly don't think he regarded me as smart. And compared to him, I probably am not. But in the past, I had always made good grades, and gotten really bad luck with men because of it. Let's face don't like smart women. Yes, I am generalizing here, but that has been the case I have noticed so far. You guys are LUCKY that you are MALE and SMART. I would wager it is probably 100 times easier for a smart man to find a woman and to establish a meaningful, long-term relationship with that woman than it is for a smart woman to do the same. A guy I was in college with actually ADMITTED that he and most men would be intimidated by my smarts. Very few men will admit this, with the ego thing and what-not, but it is a phenomenon I have noticed to be true for most of my life.

With the smart guy in my class, I didn't think this would be the case though, because he was smarter than me, so I thought that even if I were smart and acted like it, I would still have a chance. What a mistake!

OK....back to the generalization that most men don't like smart women. I know this is hard to believe for some guys, especially the few out there who actually LIKE smart women, but it is true and I have done my own little "social experiment" regarding this. In high school, it's hard to hide your intelligence in small classes where everyone knows what grade you made for everything, and morning announcements come on blaring out your academic achievements every day. In high school, I couldn't hide it and I couldn't do anything about the fact that I probably could never get a date to save my life. Which was fine, because I cared less about dating back then.

However, in college it is so much easier not to "appear smart". Add to the fact that I usually make good grades, what people consider to be "smart", I am also very good at acting...and what smart person can not "act dumb"? I decided to carry out a social experiment and act dumb/mask my intelligence and see if it resulted in any dates. Boy did I get attention then, and the dates started rolling in! After I started masking my intelligence, I started also successfully dating around! That was fun! I am not into dating around anymore, though, I have settled down a lot and enjoy long-term meaningful relationships now.

As for not being noticed...I do have a bit of a suggestion. This is not advice, as you did not ask for advice, but this is just something I noticed when I visited New York. I grew up in the good ole south, where people are friendly and acknowledge you. When I visited New York, I could've worn a purple dinosaur costume, and I doubt anyone would've noticed me. This is no slam on New has it's benefits, too. And for hot girls, I am sure there it is A LOT easier to walk around un-noticed. But when I visited New York, everyone just seemed so oblivious to the existence of everyone else. The friend I was with claimed that males did stare down my boobs, but I never did actually notice this. But no one actually said hello or attempted talking to anyone else. It's SO DIFFERENT in the south. In the south, I have more people talk to me. I have men just walk up to me and tell me I am beautiful and have a beautiful smile. And it's NICE in the south when they do this, because they don't proceed to hit on you or even ask you out...they just compliment you and it feels so nice to receive compliments that don't seem to come with any obligations. Just a little observation and suggestion that maybe the reason you don't get noticed in NY is because it IS NY, and I think in NY, it takes a whole lot more to actually get noticed., a bit of advice...sort of...even though you didn't really ask for any. Kind of more like a little suggestion. In terms of the bigger vs. skinnier about a little compromise...a little in between? Don't look for girls who are bigger or skinnier overall...look for girls who store fat in certain places. I could probably never be skinny, but I'm not considered fat by any least not now. Yeah, a few mean-spirited men have called me fat out of spite, but I would say most girls have been called that by some man or another. Men can be mean like that. I would be considered just an "average" girl in terms of weight. Don't go for women who are bigger or smaller. Go for women who are the middle. I would think the numbers would be better there. It's probably best to avoid extremes in both areas...the extremely skinny girls vs. the heavier girls. The debate leaves girls like me out in the cold. I'm average and I have fat, but it is stored around the top area. I would say "curvy", but people are now taking that to mean bigger girls, or at least girls who have a ghetto booty, and I don't.

and I am...taking time off of my coldFusion programming to reply to this post. lol. j/k...good post. sorry my comments to it are so long.


When I started reading your post, the only thing I could think about was Ayn Rand's comments in Atlas Shrugged; in the book, she has one of the characters go on and on about human sexuality and intelligence. I am sure I am not understanding it fully (Rand is an extremely complex writer), but basically she explains that ones sexuality is merely an extension of ones own intelligence and level of self-respect. As such, people like you (and hopefully me) who are smart, are turned on very much by the intelligence in others - it becomes just one of many ways in which we feel that we can truly connect with another person of like-minded values. For smart people, sex is an expression of their self-esteem and their intelligence; for fear-based people, sex is an ill attempt to make up for self-perceived inadequacy.

As such, I find it amusing that when you dumbed it down, you started to date around, and when you went back to being smart, you enjoyed long-term relationships; although you were controlling this experiment, it seems that the outcome aligns quite nicely with Rand's ideas.

All to say, I don't think you should necessarily settle for someone who is "average". I understand that looks are important in any relationship, but hopefully, you are finding happiness with someone that you connect with intellectually, and then you let the physical connection be an extension of that.

Wow, that was a seriously long blog comment! It was interesting reading though, because I've had a lot of the same observations about many men not wanting to date smart women, and even did some of the same kind of things in terms of "playing dumb" particularly in college. I would often finish exams way before anyone else in the class but would pretend I was still working on it until some other people handed them in so as not to stand out so much. I do agree with Ben that intelligence does tend to attract the same, I know I personally cannot date someone that is not at least of reasonably high intelligence (I have a tendency to just kind of walk all over guys that can't at least met me on some level!), I just haven't been lucky enough to find a guy that clicked on all circuits. The thing I always find interesting is that while I may have a high IQ and be "smart" when it comes to book learning, I often feel like there's just so much I don't know, and so many dumb things I do without thinking and that I could sure use a bit more practical common sense and just be smarter in managing my own life. In other words...intelligence comes in many forms and often those of us that may be gifted in one area would really appreciate a partner that is gifted in others!


wow, that was a nice analysis! Thanks! I like that perception of what's going on here much better than the assumption my co-workers made, trying to simplify it when they called me a "narcissist". lol I do admit I have some narcissistic tendencies. It's true that I find myself to be a unique person and like some of my qualities. I'd love to find someone with some of those same qualities that I think I have that I like. I feel like I am intelligent, but I think my intelligence compared to other truly intelligent people is probably more on the average scale. I am just higher than "average" when it comes to people with I.Q.'s around the "normal" range. In school, both high school and college, your I.Q. is above those people. On boards like this, it is BELOW everyone else's. lol

The comment about being average, by the way, was just about weight mainly...mostly. Although I am probably delusional here, because I had a very low self esteem and body image when I was younger, I really refuse to see myself as anything but "hot", looks-wise. I am sure there are at least some others who don't find me hot, though, since they are constantly pointing out this girl or that girl that they think I look like, and then when I see the girl, I don't see her as attractive at all...eek!!! lol. But I choose to continue in this so-called delusion, because I refuse to have a low self-esteem as I did when I was younger. That's an awful way to feel about oneself, and I choose to feel that way about myself again. Ever.

But I'm not a snot about it. Just because I consider myself "hot" doesn't mean I refuse to date only "hot" men. That would probably leave me alone on most occasions, and I have found most men hot in a purely physical arena have been lacking in other, more important deeper personality. Likewise, I also am not a snot about intelligence either. I feel I am pretty well-rounded and like guys who can provide the same. Meaning, I'm not the smartest person I know, but I am athletic and like the academia and wouldn't mind the company at all of someone who was very similar.

Mainly I consider myself "average" in the weight department because it's simply the truth, and no one would probably truly consider me anything else, unless I gained a lot of weight, because I have too big of boobs for anyone to consider me skinny. It's funny, because I could probably get any other area of my body as skinny as I want (though I do have other problem areas, such as my stomach), but my boobs don't really shrink down too much. So playing the intelligence game, and trying to get a guy to like you for more than what you got on top (and I am not talking about the brain here) is simply a game of learning to hide it and find clothes that de-emphasize your upper qualities. That's what I did in high school, and obviously it worked.

@Mary Jo:

Your post brought back a very interesting memory. Calculus II in college. I breezed through most of Calculus II in college, because I was at that time playing the dumbing down game, and I also had confidence that I could achieve whatever grade I wanted to achieve in that class. On the first day of class, the professor told us "what you make on your final exam you will make in this class, because the final exam is comprehensive, and if you do well on it, I have confidence you have learned everything you need to know in the class. So even if you are failing when you walk in that door, you will make an A in this class if you make an A on the final exam". Funny enough, I really didn't even remember that...I was probably cutting up when he said it...but was told that by a classmate later. I cut up a lot in that class. It was like I was a joke or something. The people in that class thought that I was going to flunk it. They were nice and helpful...we formed study groups, and studied together, but they didn't really think I was going to make it. I went into the final exam with a "C" average in the class. This was due to a lot of time not being given to Calculus II, and I probably didn't even do my homework at times, which I am sure brought the grade down. Well, anyway...I took the exam and it was a 3 hour exam. DEFINITELY comprehensive. It took me an hour...I was finished before everyone else. I was slightly embarrassed, because I knew everyone in the class thought I was failing anyway. I refused to turn my exam in before everyone else, because I figured everyone would be thinking...oh, there she goes...she's giving up...because they thought I was failing anyway. So I waited. And I waited. I went through the exam again, checking all my answers. I was afraid I was mistaken, and had really gotten all those questions wrong. But when I re-checked everything, it all looked right. I began thinking...maybe a lot of these questions are trick questions! After what seemed like was about 30 mins to an hour, someone FINALLY turned their exam in, and then another person did, so I decided to go ahead and turned it in.

There was a really smart guy in the class that I had been studying with a lot, and so I waited on him to get out. He took the whole 3 hours and wanted more time! I also wanted to see the reactions of the other students, because I was nervous that it had seemed so easy that I had just gotten everything wrong! So when the other students came out...mostly after 3 hours, we talked, and they were talking about how hard it was. I kept my mouth shut, because I thought it was so easy, but didn't want to say so. When the grades came back, I made an A and there was only 1 other student that made an A on that exam in the entire Calculus 2 department (all the classes took the exam together). The other students were so mad at me for making an A, because they figured I was going to fail or at least keep a C.

also @ Mary Jo...I won't date only highly intelligent men, however, they do have to hold a conversation with me. I have dated men WAY down on an intelligence scale, it was just difficult to talk or relate to them at all. Also, I can related with you about the common sense thing. I have always been told I have NO common sense, and some people have actually labeled me dumb because of it. It can be frustrating sometimes, when I do stupid things due to a lack of common sense.


I was just talking to a female friend of mine the other days. She is very smart and met some really cute guy at the mall. They ended up going out for dinner. I asked her how it went and she said something like:

"He was really hot... but kind of stupid... so not really any future there".

I think as much as we like to pretend that we are superficial society, when you start to think about spending time with someone and connecting on a deeper level, it becomes apparent that looks are secondary.

@Anna - That was an interesting story about the calculus exam! In my case, most of the students in my class would already know I found the material really easy and I was just not trying to get them even more annoyed at me by handing in the exam way before anyone else. I just always have been fast at tests...I don't spend much time thinking about a question, I either know immediately or I don't so I don't bother trying to wait and hope it "comes to me".

I actually though had one class that was kind of the opposite of your story. I had a class in college called Pathogenic Bacteriology, and we had been required to buy two very expensive Microbiology books for this class (bacteriology being only a small part of them) but each class, the professor would hand out a sheet summarizing the microbe for that day and the information about it. The tests were basically sentences taken from those sheets with blanks put in various places. This just totally ticked me off, since the books were really expensive and yet of no use at all. I had a strong A going into the final so I thought I'd prove a point and study *solely* from the book and see how I did. Well, I finished the exam quickly because so much of it was just incomprehensible unless you had memorized those sheets. Or in some cases, the blanks were in places where any number of answers would fit (but of course, you had to have the right one from the sheet). Needless to say, I did not do well, but I was still shocked when I got my final grades and I'd actually ended up with a D in the class! I never had the guts to write to that professor and explain why I failed that exam so bad, which made the whole thing kind of pointless. And every job interview after college, I had to explain what happened that I ended up with a D in that one class and mostly A's in everything else!

Definitely a good example of how you can have a super high IQ and still do some pretty dumb stuff! ;-)

@Mary Jo:

I know, really smart people with high IQ's really do dumb things sometimes!!! :-) Trust me, I have done my share! Sometimes so much that people don't even recognize that I am smart! Sheesh!!! :-)


You're right...looks do matter just a bit, though. I tried dating someone who was not attractive at all, to whom I had absolutely no attraction to physically whatsoever, trying not to be shallow, and it only worked for a very short time. I found myself nit-picking with him and little things bothered me that I may have glazed over had he been at least somewhat attractive to me in the physical sense. lol. Or maybe I really am shallow...


I don't think it's shallow to require some attraction; after all, that is a crucial component to animal evolution - Female Choice :)

Attraction I think is something that comes in different forms. I've never considered myself a very attractive person physically, so it's hard for me to put a high priority on that with someone else. Even still, I've dated some guys that could be hard to look at for any length of time, and it did challenge me a bit. I've never broken up with someone over looks though, but I also never understood people that seemed to care so little about what they look like that they seemed to go out of their way to look even worse...for a woman, and considering all the unpleasant things we do to ourselves to look nice for our man, that kind of attitude is darn near incomprehensible. For me though, I care less about physical beauty than just how someone takes care of themselves, and also how they make *me* feel.

@Mary Jo:

Yeah, I agree with you on the men who don't take very good care of themselves or don't try hardly at all to make themselves more attractive.

There are other things too, for instance bad breath and body odor for men. That can really cut down on one's ability to be attracted to that person! And I am not talking about the occasional morning breath almost everyone has or the body odor someone may have if you don't give them a chance to shower after a long hard workout in the hot sun. I'm talking about when a guy is completely neglectful in this area and does not shower after working out when he has strong body odor or a guy who has really bad breath but does not brush his teeth regularly. :-( Ugh! Gross! I bet you are probably more attractive than you give yourself credit for; however, I admire the fact that you don't expect more out of a man than you feel you can provide, in the looks department. I know men who are overweight to an unhealthy extreme, do not take care of themselves or their bodies, and not too incredibly attractive overall, and they want 10's. And ONLY 10's. Like, say they are a "4", right? And if a 4 or even a 5 or a 6 wanted to go out with them, they would turn them down, saying that person wasn't physically attractive enough for them. Or holding out for a 10. I find this type of behavior unattractive and despicable.

@ Ben:

btw...I think I forgot to mention...that's AWESOME that you don't smoke or drink. but on the other hand, I love singing AND dancing. The dancing I could do without, but I really enjoy singing a lot. But I would say it is definitely a plus that you don't drink or smoke. I'm sure there are many other girls who think the same way. I hate smoking, it is a HUGE turn-off. Drinking is OK if controlled, but a lot of men change drastically when they drink, and I don't like that at all. Plus, I don't care so much for the smell of it at all. ick.

@Anna - wow, you are SO RIGHT about the guys that are only looking for really attractive women when they are way low on the scale of what most would consider good's interesting that this seems to be far more a "guy" thing, you don't usually the same kind of phenomenon on the female side of things (yes, I'm sure there are exceptions, but it definitely doesn't seem as prevalent). But if you call them to task on it, they bring up this argument that you have to have physical attraction to someone and that's what they are attracted to. Sorry guys, but I just think that's such a total cop-out. But anyone that shallow is going to get pretty much what they deserve...and the chances that it will be a loving, long-term relationship are a million-to-one.


Yeah, I know. If someone on a "scale" above them, someone a lot more attractive than them turns them down, they belly ache and complain that the other person is shallow and that women shouldn't be so shallow. lol. But if you say something about THEM doing it, they make excuses for are SO right about that!!! lol. And also that it doesn't really go so much the other way with women. I'll date men who are A LOT less attractive than I am...and I'm not trying to be conceited or mean here, but facts are facts...and I would date someone in a heartbeat who was less attractive than me if he had other desireable qualities.

I'll have to admit, there have been guys in my past who weren't that attractive, and for whatever reason, I wasn't attracted to them enough to feel it was fair to date them, but they were good guys and would've made good boyfriends. I remember thinking, "if only I could be attractive enough to this guy to date him, he would make such a good boyfriend!" But I just wasn't attracted to him and knew that wouldn't be fair when he could be a good boyfriend to a good girl who was attracted to him and that's what he deserved.

But those cases have been few and far between. I am often attracted to other things, and they bring out the guys looks. A good heart, a great sense of humor, this or that personality characteristic. I'd find myself attracted to THOSE things first, and THEN they would bring out aspects of their looks which would endear me to that person. An example is that I would meet a guy and not really think too much of him. But then, I would get to know him and become really attracted to him because of his sense of humor. After that, I would notice that his wonderful sense of humor brought out a really attractive/cute/adorable/handsome sparkle in his eye, a subtle dimple in his cheek, a great smile, and a nice set of teeth that are well taken care of. Things like that. Men seem to work the opposite way. lol. They seem to find a girl they like based on looks and then project personality traits on them that they desire that girl to have, whether she has them or not.

Men on this board...please note: I am not bashing you. lol. I know that not all men are like this, but I have noticed there are quite a few who are. I know men who read some of these things are respond to them are probably actually decent guys, and this does not apply to you. I just know a lot of men who are like that. (unfortunately)...

Excellent comments, Anna. Yes, that is very much my experience as well, that guys I might not have been attracted to originally become more so as I learn more about them. And the reverse is true...sometimes guys that I thought were really cute I find to just be so shallow and into themselves that they actually become physically less attractive to me over time. Thankfully, I've not met too many like that...probably has something to do with the field I am in!

It's interesting to go on dating sites like PlentyofFish and read some of the threads in the forums there. So many threads about nice girls finishing last, and others about nice guys finishing last... whenever I would point out that a big part of the problem is over-emphasis on physical attraction and beauty, so many people really seem to be clueless about what I'm talking about, and just get real insistent about how you *have* to be physically attracted to someone first and foremost.

@Mary Jo:

I think it seems to be a girl's thing, too, more so than a guy's thing for a guy to become less attractive and for less attractive guys to become more attractive due to personality.

I think a lot of guys don't see it that way, or don't realize it. It seems that for guys, they'll put up with a lot of stuff from a hot girl, but not so much for a girl they don't see as physically attractive. If you're hot, and you have an annoying habit, like leaving dirty dishes on the coffee table or side table, a guy at the least puts up with it, but if you are not that good looking, you leave 1 plate on the coffee table 1 time with some food on it, and you're dumped. lol. That's how it seems, anyway.

I have in my later years not really put much emphasis on my personality (sadly), because many guys have been attracted to me on looks alone, and I haven't really had to concentrate too much on developing personality. Also, I've had to actually magnify certain parts of my personality that are annoying to try to get guys NOT to be attracted to me that way...guys I wanted to only be friends to try to keep them from being attracted to me physically but willing to stay friends. But since I have gotten older, I now have to start working on my personality again :-\ lol...because I know physical beauty doesn't last forever, and I am seeing my last days here of what I have left. lol.

I was at the park a few months back and a group of male joggers from the high school jogged through shirtless. All good looking guys.
I looked around the park to see how many women watched them go by.
The answer? Zero.
One or two may have looked up, but nobodies eyes followed.
Then a group a girls from the high school jogged by in the next wave.
I looked around to see how many men watched them go by.
Answer? 100%. Most watching till they were out of site. (Myself included.)
Also, some of the women watched them as well.
So don't worry if you don't get looks. But I do wonder, is this our society? Or our genetics?
And, where did those girls go after they jogged by?


It's interesting; I feel like I am almost going in the other direction as far as appearance goes. As I am getting older, I am starting to feel like the only girls that I am attracted to physically are girls who can stimulate mentally.

I think this is a function of how busy I am and how involved I am in my work and my journey of self improvement. The more focused I am on learning and broadening my mental horizons, the less patience I have for people who are simply "good looking." They just don't seem to add anything of value to my life.

If, on the other hand, you can really get my mind going and get me into a great conversation that I find stimulating, it matters less and less what you even look like.

Perhaps I have been reading too much Ayn Rand lately :D

Ben - that has been my experience as well as far as the men that I meet. It's been far easier for me to date in my 40's than it was in my 20's and I certainly don't think I'm any more attractive! I do think I am far more confident and self-assured but a large part of that is also because I don't feel as judged for my appearance as I did when I was younger. I find many men are really thrilled about meeting someone that can have an intelligent conversation and is interested in so many things, and that's really refreshing.

I had a fun time this week, I threw a big dinner party for a bunch of friends, it was the largest crowd I've ever had at my house and it went off beautifully. I cooked everything from scratch (even the bread!) and there were thankfully no disasters. But more than one person commented about how they couldn't believe some guy hadn't snatched me up yet as well as I cooked. So much for that saying about the way to a man's heart being through their stomach! ;-)


Nice observation. I have noticed as well that really super-hot guys just don't do it for me hardly at all. If one walks by in a store, I may not even notice, unless he bumps into me or something, or somehow makes a point of saying something interesting. My girlfriends and I have talked about that trend as well. Women are so much prettier than men. :-D In all seriousness, men really need something besides looks, because *most* women aren't merely stimulated by what they see alone. And depending on the area, maybe they went to some kind of a health food store, like a smoothie shop or something to re-fuel after the run?


C'mon! Give the hot girls a chance! Wouldn't it be nice just once in awhile to sit across from a Perfect 10 in looks and just have something nice to look at...not to have to have the PRESSURE of a conversation! To be able to wind down from a hard day of work by sitting across from an absolute bombshell and unwind just looking at the beauty across the table from you???! just kidding.

<img src="">

Sorry. Couldn't resist but to add my own little obligatory leg illustration of how it would be nice for men to date AVERAGE girls...girls who are not considered "big" girls, but also not considered skinny by any means, just kind of in the middle girls who have fat in certain areas...

and after all this work, it probably didn't even show anyway.

@Ben and Mary Jo:

When I was a mite younger, early 20's, I enjoyed dating older men, because I noticed this was the case...that it was the older men who were less fixated on my looks. Even when you are good-looking, when you have brains, if you are looking for a more long-term relationship instead of a temporary one, you don't want a significant other who is only fixated on your looks, no matter how good you look! Sure, it's nice when they appreciate it, but it's nice when they appreciate other things as well. And it seemed the younger men were really only into looks. And that can be annoying!

@Mary Jo:

It does sound like a very fun dinner party! Congrats! everything from scratch, and without disasters! It is surprising you haven't been snatched up...I know plenty of men who would love it if I were to have cooking talents, or if they were to meet a woman who had them. And you've got brains too! :-) That's a great combination.

ha! I knew it! the image wouldn't post! after all that hard work! :-( oh well. I guess you'll just have to follow the link. lol.

@ Ben & Anna - well, I don't know that the host of a large party really has that much "fun" - but all my guests raved about the food and said they had a great time, and that is what really matters!

Even though I live in a little town in central PA, we have a wonderful shop in town with all gourmet food items, cookware, appliances etc. and they also run cooking classes regularly. Usually just a one-night class where they have a topic and do 4-5 courses (like watching Emeril live) and then you sample all the dishes and take home the recipes. It's really cool and a lot of fun for someone like me that likes to cook. It just is one of those frustrating things about being single, there's just not much reason to do a really nice meal when it's only for yourself....good food is meant to be appreciated by others!

@Mary Jo,

I don't know anything about cooking... but I find watching the Food Network somewhat hypnotic. Been really enjoying "Unwrapped" and seeing how things are made.

Cooking is not as hard as many people seem to think it is. It's really just following a set of just takes practice...and willingness to spend the time learning. There are some really great books out there for learning to cook and I find that it truly is one of the great pleasures in life, to enjoy a meal that you prepared yourself (when it turns out well!) It really is something that lends itself very well to a lot of personalities...those that like to tinker and try different things, and those that like a very specific set of rules to follow and stick to. I was thinking today about the various "artistic" things I like to do and they are all things for which I have a very clear set of directions to follow: cooking, origami, music, etc. I am not someone for instance that can paint or sculpt....unless I have something to copy! Nor am I someone that can improvise music, if it's not written on the page, I can't play it. So cooking is right up my alley as well, and it's all about finding those perfect recipes.

The culture of food definitely is taking off in the US though....Food Network certainly has a lot to do with that. They have a lot of shows I really like. Also, America's Test Kitchen on PBS is a great show that has very simple recipes that generally are quite good. I've been reading a lot of stuff recently as well that has to do with food culture. Right now I'm working on "The Foie Gras Wars" which is a really entertaining and interesting read about the clash between those that produce this gourmet food product (goose/duck liver) and those that think it's cruel to the birds (since it requires force feeding). I've never eaten the stuff, but still find it a fascinating story. Although reading it does make me at least want to try the stuff once, when you read about people raving over how divine it is. But then I never understood caviar either!

@Mary Jo:

I can see how cooking for/entertaining a large crowd could be stressful and exhausting! But I am glad it was a rewarding experience for you. I know what you mean, too, about cooking for only one. A lot of recipes aren't for just one, and I like following recipes to the T until I know them really well, then I make small modifications. I have only cooked French food in the past, and a lot of those dishes just don't cook well for just one person. If you have a variety of ingredients, and one of them is "4", and another is "6", and then, a few of them are "1" do you really cut 1/6 of an eggplant from the veggie and know it is exactly 1/6 for the recipe, ya know? Or whatever ingredient there is 1 of that you have to fraction off...

Also, same with me with music. Can not play by ear, but I can read and play most things. Singing, I can't read as well, but I can actually do that by ear a bit. Also, when I write songs, they are usually VERY structured and by certain rules...I rarely ever "free write" with no structure. And am VERY picky about rhyme schemes, even if I write poems anymore.

and yeah, I could never draw or sculpt or do anything like that, especially if it was supposed to be an original. I am just not that gifted in that way.

I have to agree with you. Just because a girl is a little on the thick side doesnt mean she has less to offer. Many hot girls know they are hot and play it to the fullest, even if they are envolved with someone they still tend to flirt outside the box because the like being seen and remaining the center of attention. While heavier women tend to be more realistic and want to hang on to what they have. I think you would also notice a big difference in the bed room as most heavier women are not over sexed and will actually out perform their hot girl counter parts. (do it like you ain't never gonna get it again) if you will.

I agree on larger ladies. My first girlfriend was way to thin, she was skin and bones.. I am now married to a lovely lady. She is a larger lady and i love it.

Thanks for your sites! it has helped me with quiet a few cfml problems

dragging up an old dog, @hot girls...thanks. It kind of depends on the guy and the type of relationship he doesn't bother some guys for a girl to flirt outside the box, as you say, and some guys actually like to be with a girl other guys is an ego thing (I am guessing, not that I am an expert at guys). And not all hot girls flirt with other men...and I think also it has to do with how into you the girl is. I think that no matter how hot a girl is, if she is really, really into you, she probably won't notice other guys so much. Not that I am saying I am hot, but I certainly don't...not when I am really, really into a guy. When I'm not, I'll be the first to admit that I am a flirt, but when I am totally into a guy, I really don't notice other guys at all, especially when I am physically with him. When I am not, then all I can think of, really, is him (in terms of guys).

And hotness...that also depends on your definition of hotness. Are only rail-thin girls 'hot' or considered 'hot'? Some guys don't really like that, and would consider a curvier girl to be 'hot'. I should say 'more voluptiuous', maybe, because some people have grown to use the word 'curvy' to refer to women with a little extra meat on their bones. As you can see, I am 'average' that, I mean not rail-thin, but also not 'fat' either. The 'curvy' most people are referring to would not apply even to me. Like, think Anna Nicole Smith during her 'average' years. There were times when she was skinny, but usually, she was what people would call 'curvy'. But that wouldn't describe me, because I don't have enough meat to quailify. On the other hand, I think it would be a very rare person who would call me skinny.

@Glenn, glad you found happiness. It can come in all forms, including the bigger kind. :-)

See now, I'd have thought you knew this...looking at you, particularly with eye contact is an "indicator of interest" or IOI as the Game guys call it. Women, particularly attractive ones, tend to be pretty parsimonious with their IOIs in the street. It's kind of hard to take it back and invites a lot of unwelcome attention.

Larger girls? Maybe they're hoping for the attention and sending out lots of IOIs.

As for me, I have trouble with eye-contact...which is probably why I could sit in a bar, dressed to the nines, alone...and not get approached once. Thankfully that goes away once I already know people and have something interesting to talk about.


I wouldn't have a clue as to anything the Game guys were calling anything or were thinking...I'm not even sure what they are? When it comes to eye contact, I have been trained in various forms of self defense, and I look at what I look at, but it is mainly with an eye towards defense and if I am going to need it. I constantly survey the scene, and make sure it is safe, and ready myself for defense if it is needed. I supposed that when my glance falls upon this or that guy, he may think that I am looking at him out of interest -- that, I don't know. But it is also possible that he is hungry for interest, and looking for a girl to be interested, so the least little thing that looks like eye contact, he bites. I don't know.

On the subject of attractive girls, I am pretty used to them. I would consider my best friend to be one of the most beautiful women in the world, and my best friend in high school growing up was a pageant girl. She's definitely what most men would consider 'hot' and, since it is kind of on the subject, is thin also.

And I agree...some of them may be snotty, some may think too much of themselves...some may be vacant, and some may think they are better than anyone else. There a lots of hot girls in the world, and chances are, probably most of them do have undesirable personality characteristics. But our personalities are partly comprised of components that are a result of the way we are treated. And hot girls are probably sick of people, especially men, treating them like meat.

One of my favorite commercials comes to mind. The green m&m walking down the street. Some construction man is hanging out if the structure he is working on, whistling, cat-calling, yelling at the m&m. The m&m says, "Men!" She passes by a woman. The woman makes some comment towards her (some sort of come on, I remember). The green m&m goes "Women!". The hot girl, the green m&m in this situation, may be perceived as snotty or thinking she is better than someone else for simply refusing to respond, but maybe she's just had a bad day. Maybe her high-heels have made her feet ache so much and she just wants to get home and take them off, or has something else to do and doesn't want to talk to these people.

A phenomenon I have noticed happening frequently around me is that men treat hot girls differently from girls who probably wouldn't be described as "hot". They don't act respectful towards hot girls. I don't know if it is an ego thing or what, but a lot of guys act like they own a hot girl, or like they have rights to her. Some of them treat her just really badly and/or wrongly. But, you know, what kind of a personality does a person expect a girl to develop around that kind of treatment?

I think most girls, hot girls included, could totally fall for a guy, regardless of looks, if he just treated her right...if he would learn how to treat women.

That is all. :-)

If you are referring to the age of post, yes, this is a very old post.