Ben Nadel
On User Experience (UX) Design, JavaScript, ColdFusion, Node.js, Life, and Love.
I am the chief technical officer at InVision App, Inc - a prototyping and collaboration platform for designers, built by designers. I also rock out in JavaScript and ColdFusion 24x7.
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Ben Nadel at NCDevCon 2011 (Raleigh, NC) with:

Man Down: Proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt That Women Are Better At Everything By Dan Abrams

By Ben Nadel on

This weekend, I read a small but provocative book, Man Down: Proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt That Women Are Better Cops, Drivers, Gamblers, Spies, World Leaders, Beer Tasters, Hedge Fund Managers, and Just About EVERYTHING ELSE by Dan Abrams. At 36 chapters (about 2-3 pages per chapter) Man Down is succinct and straightforward about getting its point across: Women are better than us. And, Dan Abrams has the facts and figures to back up this claim.

 
 
 
 
 
 
Man Down: Proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt That Women Are Better Cops, Drivers, Gamblers, Spies, World Leaders, Beer Tasters, Hedge Fund Managers, and Just About EVERYTHING ELSE by Dan Abrams, reviewed by Ben Nadel. 
 
 
 

This was quick and fun book to read. At times laugh-out-loud funny and loaded with fabulous quotes, Abrams brings to light a whole bunch of studies and surveys that appear to indicate that women are much better than us men in a lot of ways. And, if you don't want to believe the studies, it's hard to argue with Insurance Companies. If there's any institution in this world that cuts through all the political correctness and common-sense with an exacting focus on monetary gain, it's insurance companies. And, insurance companies - well, they're giving women better rates (at least for driving, Chapter 17).

Now I can't argue for or against any of the studies that Abrams presents. I haven't done any research. My heart-of-hearts certainly tells me that Chapter 10: Women Get Ready Faster Than Men is just wrong. I wake up at 7:30 AM and am out of my door at 7:54 AM; so, the idea that men reported that they took 83 minutes to get ready, on average, just seems bananas! Of course, the study was done by a health and beauty company, so I have to assume that the participants were already skewed toward the "metrosexual" end of the spectrum. For most of the chapters, however, the numbers and statistics presented are ones that cannot be easily attacked.

The book is 36 chapters, and there's a lot of really fun content; but I thought I would share with you a few of my favorite excerpts.

Chapter 4: Women Are Better Spies

"A 2009 study by Radbound University in the Netherlands found that - shocker - male brains become impaired in the presence of beautiful women, no matter how intelligent the man may be. According the Telegraph, which reported the research, "Men who spend even a few minutes in the company of an attractive woman perform less well in tests designed to measure brain function than those who chat to someone they do not find attractive." Meanwhile, the women didn't even flinch at the presence of an attractive male. So the presence of attractive women effectively renders a significant portion of men about as useful as slightly drunken sailors, while women remain stone-cold sober. (PG 29)

Chapter 15: Women Are Better Students

At our colleges and universities, men are increasingly coming to embody a slacker underclass. According to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, colleges graduate 185 women for every 100 men. That means men are graduating college at a trifling 54 percent of the rate that women are. In a recent projection, the Department of Education anticipated that by 2016, 61 percent of bachelor's degrees, 63 percent of master's degrees, and 58 percent of doctoral degrees will go to women as well.

.... The gender imbalance at universities has become so pronounced that in 2010 the New York Times reported that some Ivy League schools have been accused of stacking the deck in favor of the boys in an effort to level the playing field:

"[A]t some schools, efforts to balance the numbers have been met with complaints that less-qualified men are being admitted over more-qualified women. In December, the United States Commission on Civil Rights moved to subpoena admissions data from 19 public and private colleges to look at whether they were discriminating against qualified female applicants. (PG 64-66)

Chapter 27: Women Are Getting Better Looking Faster Than Men

Not only are women more attractive than men right now, they are going to keep on getting more so, achieving a fresh apex of attractiveness with every generation.

Effectively a genetic curse has been placed on them (men). It seems women are genetic go-getters who tend to give their children even better genes than they themselves had. Whereas men, genetic slackers, are going to stay more or less the same - and therefore, relatively speaking, are going to keep on getting uglier. Ouch.

According to a study of two thousand American men and women conducted by Markus Jokela at the University of Helsinki (and reported by the UK's Times), attractive women procreate 16 percent more than other women. Now couple that with a study from the London School of Economics of 2,972 men and women that found 56 percent of couples that feature at least one "beautiful" person had female children.

Call it Darwinism as retouched by Anna Wintour. Attractive women are having more children; and a majority of offspring of attractive people, male and female alike, are female. (PG 107-108)

That last one just makes me smile! So, not only are women getting more educated, they're also going to be getting hotter and hotter with each generation. Men - we are in trouble!

To end this post, I want to leave you with an excellent TED talk by Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook. Her talk, "Why We Have To Few Women Leaders," points out that while women have achieved a great deal of success, they are still having trouble reaching the top of the corporate ladder. And, unfortunately, part of this is due to their own self-sabotage; women consistently underestimate their own abilities, attribute their success to external factors, and take themselves out of the game way too early.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Ok, and one more fun quote from the book: "As a woman, I find it very embarrassing to be in a meeting and realize I'm the only one in the room with balls," - Rita Mae Brown.



Reader Comments

Hey Ben, I just had to comment to say I was laughing out loud at the picture of you in your "NO ONE HAS LEFT A COMMENT" banner :) Sounds like a fun read too; thanks for sharing.

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@Jamie,

Ha ha, glad you liked that - I was trying to make interaction a bit more "friendly."

It was a fun read, and a short read. Only took me like 3 hours to get through the book (and I'm a pretty slow reader). It's got a good "bathroom reader" kind of format.

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Sounds like you learned quite a bit from the book!

Now, how are you going to apply this to your daily life?

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My boyfriend usually gets up 2 hours before he has leave to be anywhere, which boggles my mind. I get up about half an hour before I need to leave. I have some crazy hair though, so it takes about 20 minutes to shower, whereas you have none! I honestly don't know what he does with his time . . .

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Maybe it's organization. I get ready in about 15 min, but then look for my keys, sun glasses and wallet for about 45min.

Maybe I need a man purse so I always have them together.

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@Ben, on the subject of men's brains becoming impaired in the presence of beautiful women, you would probably like Dr. Esther Vilar's book:

http://www.amazon.com/Manipulated-Man-Esther-Vilar/dp/1905177178/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1301936364&sr=1-1

It was shouted down in the early days of post-hippy feminism (not long after Gloria Steinem founded Ms magazine) for pointing out the many ways that women benefit from sexism. So you've probably never heard of it.

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While I have no issue saying a woman is better than I am at certain things, this isn't black and white; being male doesn't make you instantaneously inferior to women.

The history books are filled with prominent men who have shaped the future of countries and mankind. I am sure that many women had similar effects but may have not been given the credit they deserved.

Either way, a man's mind goes to mush when he sees a pretty woman because woman simply do not know nor comprehend the male psyche when it comes to sex and feminine beauty. To say we are wired genetically to it puts it succinctly, but astutely as well.

Getting charmed is one thing, women are constantly bombarded by media to be as pretty as they can be (which is why many are very self-conscious) This probably has a tie-in with why they have no conviction.

It's one thing to WANT to do something or even KNOW it, but if you don't DO it, then you're just in love with the IDEA of it, and not the reality of being/doing it.

And ladies, I love ya; I really do - one thing that's almost unanimous with women is their caring nature, and it's something many people take advantage of, but I think it's genuinely commendable and endearing.

...but on the other hand, the nagging... oh Lordy PLEASE stop the nagging! :)

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@Aaron . . . oh, yeah, that nagging . . . erm. I've noticed that I've been doing this quite a bit lately . . . trying to dial back on that. I think I need more silence on my part and drop a few more items on my list to get upset about.

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@Lola,

Woman are very opinionated right now, and many are also very critical of themselves and others.

I couldn't (and don't) blame women 100% for the nagging; many times guys do things that actively warrant such. So an equal step into lowering the amount of nagging is for the guy to look at himself and make sure he's not a contributing factor to it.

I think if couples would just realize that they are both on the same side, and it's so much more fun this way than to work against each other, they'd have a lot less worries to that end.

One thing I've always admired about woman is their free spirit nature. Sure, it might be the cause to why they are bored so easily (always seeking something new in life. vs. men loving to build routine and structure into life), but still, couple that with their caring nature and ya just want to hug da fruffrins outta dem. :)

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@Jules . . . because it takes a guy to notice these things. :P

Honestly, women, in general, are taught to be very low-key about showing off, even nowdays. I find it very hard to brag about myself and @Aaron, you're definitely right about self-criticism. I'm doing this all the time, and my husband has to tell me from time to time not to put myself down.

And also, I'm a bit shy, especially due to my hearing loss. So, I tend not to "put" myself out there when it comes to showing off my abilities.

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Women are brought up being taught to crave the opinion and favor of men and others. It's one of the stresses woman have undergone in today's media (the same media that pushes overly high standards of beauty on them)

This invariably, for many woman, results in self-esteem issues of feelings of worthlessness, which manifest themselves in a myriad of ways.

I've only been in one relationship (and it didn't last long-because she moved away, outside her control) but I made it a point to always tell her how cute and pretty she was, and she always blushed.

I didn't say it just to help her self-esteem, but I thought it was true, too. On the other hand, nothing is worse than a woman who is confident in her beauty; that brings out a very unappealing side.

There will always be differences between men and women in this regard; I think it's what helps attract one to the other; I've had issues with confidence. To me, confidence always lead to pride and ego; some of the 2 main culprits women have with men; but at the same time, one of the most attractive qualities women stated they were looking for was confidence.

I never found a happy medium. And as such I'm a very under-confident person, which has helped keep me humble and conserve, but I'm sure isn't tops with a lotta ladies.

How did Homer Simpson put it? "You see, the problem with today's couples is communication -- too much communication."

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@Lola,

Hmmm, how to apply this to my life going forward? That's a good question. I know this is going to sound completely ironic, given the post topic, but perhaps the best way to use this is to simply exclude the concept of inherent gender strengths. Of course, I just got finished posting about how women are awesome at stuff; but, what I mean by "exclude" is to remove from your mind any preconceived notions that anyone is good at anything for any other reason than personal and individual performance.

@Kate,

I get up about half an hour before I need to leave... heck yeah! My kind of gal :) You should ask your BF what he does - I think we are all very curious on this topic.

@Jeff,

I recently threw out one of my tables. I live in a tiny studio apartment and the lack of counter space has definitely forced me to be more organized - if I'm not, it turns to total chaos very quickly. So, perhaps organization is a big factor.

@WebManWalking,

Sounds like an interesting and provocative book. I'll see if I can find some time to give it a read. Thanks for the link (I'll be leaving that Amazon.com tab open for a bit).

@Aaron,

one thing that's almost unanimous with women is their caring nature, I can't remember where I read this, but I think I saw somewhere that like 60% of all management is now Female; and, I think a big part of that was the nurturing nature of women. I wish I could remember where I read that.

@Jules,

Ha ha, I think he actually addresses that in the book; but, I can't remember offhand what he said (and I left the book at the office).

@Aaron, @Lola,

You should watch the TED talk at the end of the post - Sheryl goes into some very interesting points about women's critical self. Quite a good talk.

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Via Tom Long (who was getting blocked as SPAM for some reason):
-----

Notice the positive feedback loop 4, 15 & 27 create. If 4 is true, this would also create the male slacker in co-ed colleges. If the 4 & 15 feedback loop is true, this would cause an environment for slacker males to reproduce with superior genetic females. (tongue in cheek)

Marriages without male offspring are more likely to result in a divorce. This also is a positive feedback loop for females & males that produce daughters to have more children with more partners and thus more odds for females.

Yet there are negative feedback loops that keep things spinning out of control. "... female offspring of parental divorce and parental remarriage are more susceptible to suicide attempt than male offspring." - NIH But a balanced book would never have sold :)

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@Ben,

I had a listen at the video. One thing I don't necessarily agree with her is that she believes that the current numbers are bad and are going in the wrong direction.

While I'm all for women empowering themselves to get to where they want to be in life; this isn't an issue that women alone deal with; men deal with it as well.

I was kind of taken back by the video somewhat. Though she seems to be a very well spoken and intelligent woman, she comes off slightly jaded at what she feels is, more common than not, an intellectual inferior, the male counterpart.

Though I can sympathize with this, you can only play the pity card so many times; each time more collectively damaging to yourself. I agree that mayhaps the "system" in place isn't playing on a fair and level field, and if you can change this for the better or more neutral, more power to ya.

She hits home the fact that, well, for what can be nothing less than male ego, guys do feek awkward working under women. I can't tell you why; I work under a woman and have no issues with it. If she's there, she's earned the right to be. My dad says "Never disrespect a (hu)man until they give you reason to do so", and I extend that courtesy to anyone who does me the same.

In the end she sounds as if she wants to change women for the better so that they mimic male behavior in the workplace rather than she scorns males for being successful for having already done so.

You have to wade through the potshots she takes at sterotypical male behavior. Personally, I INSIST on washing dishes if she makes the dinner (I can't cook worth crap, but I'll do my share) Being a father means handling my responsibility of rearing a child up in this world, and it's more common that males shirk these responsibilities. Problem is, when woman bring this to light, it makes people like me who DO feel the extra work is my responsibility feel as if we're not appreciated. I know you can't use absolutes like "every guy is _____" or "no woman has ever _____" because there will always be people who break that mold.

I think she just doesn't like the aspect of being a stay at home mom. And if that's true, then just DO! There's wanting and then there's DOING. Bringing a child into this world is a 24/7 responsibility. That eats up time (among other things). And it's an 18 year commitment. That's part of the sacrafice, and why some women found that being a stay-at-home mom was perfect for them (since they wanted to bring up a family)

This isn't a case of getting the numbers to 50/50 because there are 50% females to 50% males. Why not argue that there isn't a 50/50 ratio of athletes? Why not argue there isn't a 50/50 ratio of construction workers? It's a case of KNOWING what you want and WORKING to get there; and if that means changing who you are, you have to ask yourself if you're willing to do that.

If something stops you and it's based on your gender, that should be taken to court for discrimination. But if the only thing that's stopping you is you, then you've already identified what's to blame for not being who you thought you wanted to be.

--Just my thoughts.

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@Ben,

The book sounds interesting … though I wonder which lady friend Dan Abrahams was trying to impress with this book...:) Does the book mention about women are less corrupt, less prone to invade another country and make better judge?...:)

I don't think either sex is superior to the other. It's just that one may be better in some area than other and vice versa. An interesting book is "The Female Brain" by Louann Brizendine M.D. I think it's a must read for all women and those men who love the women in their lives or want to understand women ...:)

http://www.amazon.com/Female-Brain-Louann-Brizendine-M-D/dp/0767920090

Here is an excerpt:

"Until eight weeks old, every fetal brain looks female - female is nature's default gender setting. If you were to watch a female and a male brain developing via time-lapse photography, you would see their circuit diagrams being laid down according to the blueprint drafted by both genes and sex hormones. A huge testosterone surge beginning in the eighth week will turn this unisex brain male by killing off some cells in the communication centers and growing more cells in the sex and aggression centers. If the testosterone surge doesn't happen, the female brain continues to grow unperturbed. The fetal girl's brain cells sprout more connections in the communication centers and areas that process emotion. How does this fetal fork in the road affect us? For one thing, because of her larger communication center, this girl will grow up to be more talkative than her brother. Men use about seven thousand words per day. Women use about twenty thousand. For another, it defines our innate biological destiny, coloring the lens through which each of us views and engages the world."

I liked the TED talk by Sheryl Sandberg mostly... its true women are unsure of their talents or not confident enough to exert themselves visibly. They hold themselves back and give priority to children and family over career. But she didn't mention that women are conditioned that way due to lack of support. The saying "For every successful man, there is a woman or a set of women (mother, sisters, girlfriends or wife)" speaks for itself that most successful men have found success since women in their lives have helped them be selfish enough to pursue their heart's desires. Since you have to be selfish to lock yourself for hours in a lab or at a desk or be at the computer or be at conferences for most part of the year. We need such selfishness in geniuses since success demands hard work and time. For women most of the times it's important to make sure others needs are fulfilled before they can address their own needs. That's why most of the successful women are not married or do not have children or attain success much later in their lives in comparison to the men. So the ambitious women are asked to make a choice between family and career while the men can enjoy both. I think with time we see men are stepping into supporting roles by taking up some of the child rearing and household tasks to let women try to reach their potentials. But there is still a long way to go towards changing male attitude towards women's need and capability for success. I liked what she says in the end "I want my son to be successful and I want my daughter to be liked for being successful." Since a woman wanting to be successful or career orientated is somehow more selfish than a man wanting the same. I think the key within a family is knowing who is good at what and letting them pursue that. Neither every woman needs to run off and start a business or try to be a CEO/COO nor should they be compelled to take up the 90% of child rearing responsibility.

@Aaron, @Lola,

Regarding nagging, my theory is… by the time a woman speaks up about something; she must have tolerated for sometimes and then given many non-verbal or indirect hints towards the issue. So when she finally is forced to voice audibly what she means... she is already frustrated and it comes out as nagging...:) So when we see a woman nagging means attentions to some things are overdue.

@Aaron,

You sound defensive...:) Women appreciate men helping out and taking active part in child rearing. But the thought that men need to be appreciated for doing what they should do anyway sounds as though they are doing a favor. It's not just doing the part that one supposed to do (as a duty or to be politically correct) but what women want is men to be really involved so they see how precious the experience is and how it turns out to be a very positive influence on the child. Unfortunately most men think its woman's role to do most of the earlier child rearing and they would somehow take over when the child is older and needs guidance in sport/career etc.

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one more comment from my side...
if in a team if majority are males and are having beautiful females, then I think the productivity of men may increase to impress the beautiful ladies, as the men may compete each other to get some points before the beauties...

thanks

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@A CF Fan,

A quote from Chaucer seems appropriate, describing a young man of about 20 who is a character in "The Canterbury Tales":

And he hadde been som time in chivachye [on cavalry expeditions]
In Flandres, in Artois, and Picardye,
And born him wel as of so litel space, [i.e. considering his young age]
In hope to stonden in his lady grace.

Which last line I often loosely translate:

"Because he wanted to impress his girlfriend."

Even in 700 years, some things never change. :-)

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@Smita Samal,

I may have taken personally the seemingly global insult when women say "Men don't take responsibility for housework or child rearing" because I feel like standing up and saying "Wait a tick; though I DO those things and didn't need any form of thanks (because it's my equal responsibility), I'll be darned if you tell ME that I fall into the same category as the average guy who doesn't take responsibility.

I think I got defensive because people chose to use an absolute "Men who don't take the responsibility of..." is an absolute and includes me, though I don't fall into that group. So yeah, I'm probably a bit defensive of it.

Personally, I think bringing a child into the world is a decision too many people take lightly. This child requires time, sacrifice, money and so much more that one or both parents may not be willing to give up.

For me, I love the freedom of not having that responsibility. I don't think of it as a bad thing; in fact, it's good. I REALIZE that I don't have the responsibility and, therefore, don't pursue having a child. This, IMO, is a better option than a person who had the child either knowing they didn't have the responsibility to see it through or were unsure from the get-go.

On a side story I had a friend who actually WANTED to be a part of the child's upbringing but his g/f (wasn't married) was VERY defensive about how the child was to be brought up. After so many attempts and having her practically counter every one of his efforts, he gave up and relented to just being a provider. Cest la vie, I guess.

As far as nagging goes, assuming the fault isn't the male's (which is is sometimes), the woman has to be constructive when she offers her input. When you tell a male what to do, he'll usually become very defensive (Who does she think she is to tell me what to do? I'll show her, etc.) Guys really enjoy their freedoms. But at the same time, a guy should never tell his girl what to do. I've always thought that "Go make me a sandwich, will ya?" is less preferable to "Kitten, would you mind making me a sandwich? I really liked the last one." (Also, givin smooches as a "thanks" is usually appreciated) ;) Women shouldn't be commanded either; it's a partnership, both have to work together.

Men will always try to impress pretty women; even though when asked, no man ever has an idea of what women are attracted to. :)

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about the last part about women having trouble finding success, reaching the top, etc., and about self-sabotage, not attributing their successes to themselves, etc. This is a problem, too. Women can be VERY catty and VERY mean to each other. C'mon girls! We're on the same team! As soon as we realize this, we will be far better off and get much farther. Whereas women will cut each other to the bone, you don't see a lot of men doing this. A lot of them will joke and cut each other down in good-nature, but they won't be downright hostile towards each other. And the bullying that's being done these days...nowadays, it is usually women. I'm sorry, I don't hate other women at all, and I can see that we do have a lot of good qualities, but I believe there are things we can learn from men. Women can be so catty towards each other, and feel so threatened by each other. If a woman sees another woman who is drop-dead gorgeous, talented, smart, etc...and she is not so herself, it is often the case that she gets jealous and tries to bring that other woman down. Men will rib at each other and joke around in a good-natured way, but they usually won't become hostile towards each other and catty the way women will. Sorry, I just had to put my 2 cents in. Again, I don't hate women...in fact, I am one of the non-catty variety, but I just think that women could learn from men some, too.

@Smita: some great points you made! Great post, as usual. :-)

Also, about the time it takes...I had a boyfriend once who spent a lot more time getting ready than me. He took an hour just picking out an outfit, and we were only going to go to the park to walk around. I, on the other hand, helped him pick his outfit out, because I had gotten ready in 20 minutes.

Also, there are men who nag as well. I have dated them.

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@Aaron,

I can understand how you may feel when you do everything right and still women point out how irresponsible men are. I guess it's just that there are too many irresponsible than responsible ones. I admire your (current) decision to not have baby. It's a responsibility and once you have baby you won't know what hit you on your head. Life just completely changes drastically. But the pay offs you get is indescribable out of the world experience when you have a baby with someone you love and at the time you both were exactly ready. So I tell all new couple don't rush. Wait for 5 years or so after marriage/or in-relationship (if time/age permits), spend time with each other, travel and see the world and then you would know when the time is right. Don't have a baby because it's in fashion or you were just too lazy to take precaution...:)

About nagging... i know men don't like to be told...:) I have a funny anecdote from my own life. I always buy a fresh gallon of milk when the previous one is half down for my son. My husband only needs few drops of milk for coffee. So for me it is always implied that if there is an open can then finish that before you open a new one. And my husband knowingly always has to open the fresh one for few drops for his coffee (since he likes fresh ones better) while the older one is sitting in fridge right in the front (strategically placed by me). I have told my husband many times use the older one (follow FIFO)(me being a perfectionist, it just hurts me and i find it very insensitive). But now I have given up and chuckle when he does that and I have seen he is trying to follow my instructions.

And about taking time to get ready, yes men take longer. @Ben, you are an anomaly...:)

Here is a link to Colbert Report show on a lawyer who is anti-feminist. This is just way too funny...:) and no way implies that anyone among us thinks this way.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/379605/march-31-2011/difference-makers---roy-den-hollander

@Anna,

Your comment "I am one of the non-catty variety" just cracked me up...:) I think it's the insecurity that makes anyone to be jealous or deffensive or catty. Even though it is annoying and frustrating to see that kind of feeling in women for other women, I think we are in the path of growth in terms recognizing our own potentials and getting the due respect for it. It is understandable that women may sound whiny at times since they have seen how it is so easy for men in their place than themselves. I think we just need time to feel secure in our own skin, I guess then we would be free to admire others. If you look at it their are women still in so many parts of the world still not free and women in developed countries enjoying their freedom and freewill (to some extent) not for very long (only a century or so). So we need a bit more time to catch up. Guess it's fair!...:)

BTW - where do you find these men to date...:)You need a change of scene...:)

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@Smita Samal,

That sounds like good advice.

I suffer from some bouts of perfectionism; I wonder if you're like me, in that we KNOW we're perfectionists, and we KNOW perfection can never be attained, but we try nonetheless in a seemingly cruel carrot-before-the-donkey blind hope. :)

Sounds like your hubby might have a minor OCD. I, too, like fresher milk, but since I'm single right now, unless that milk is expired, I won't have another gallon in the fridge (and since I chug 5-6 cappuccino's a week, and since cereal is a staple in my diet (you can eat it whenever!) I don't often have to worry about there being too much milk in the fridge at any given point.

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@Smita -

I know! Tell me about it! And about the women...I know that the competition is harder out there for women for the few jobs and opportunities there are for us. And I have NO problem with women being fierce competitors and give it all they've got. Heck, I don't even care personally really I'd a woman sleeps her way to the top and that's how she gets there and gets that position over me. I personally would never do it, but that's my choice, and if another woman got in a position higher than me by doing that, I would simply just still feel good about the fact that I did not stoop to stop to that level to get that job. Unfortunately, I have ben a victim of very severe bullying by women over the stupidest things...including guys I was not even interested in. but that doesn't mean I hate all women...certainly not, nor do I think all women are like that, nor do I blame all women for it. But I do love and admire women who are confident in themselves and don't feel like they have to bully other women. I hold some of those women as some of my closest friends. :-) there are some great women out there, no doubt. Unfortunately, there are those that throw a bad light on the good ones.

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@Aaron,

From what it sounds like, people like you aren't part of the problem - you're part of the solution :) I agree with what you're saying. There are many people to whom this kind of speech doesn't apply; but, I have to assume that it is not a leveled playing field just yet. I see her talk as being more targeted at boosting women and not so much about cutting down men. If anything, I think she was saying that women undermine themselves - not that men are actively undermining them.

@Smita,

Does the book mention about women are less corrupt .... actually, yes it does. Dan talks about politics and that, while there has been a steady rise in females in politics, there as not been a substantial rise in women getting caught up in corruption.

@Smita,

That's interesting about brain development. I believe we are all female, phenotypically (as opposed to genotypically) until Testosterone is introduced. People who have Testosterone receptors grow up as women (even if they have an X/Y genetic makeup).

Testosterone is a very interesting / amazing / awesome hormone. Though, so is Estrogen. A while back, the public radio show, This American Life, did an entire show about Testosterone:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testosterone

One of the most interesting pieces on the show was an interview with a transgender women who became a man and started to take Testosterone. From what I recall, one of the things He said was that after taking Testosterone he actually got better at Math (or Physics - can't remember which one). He said he knew that would be a very controversial thing to say, but he said he suddenly was able to wrap his head around concepts that didn't make as much sense before.

@Matt,

Even in 700 years, some things never change .... ha ha ha :)

@Aaron,

I think we can all relate to getting defensive in our own way. Take me, for example - I'm a guy and don't drink, know absolutely nothing about sports, love romantic comedies and .... wait for it.... am a *morning* person :) If it came to a Turing Test, I am sure I could easily fake people into thinking I was a woman. We certainly don't all fit into any mold.

@Anna,

One thing that I tend to see is men getting over grudges a lot faster than women. I've not seen the show Entourage a whole lot, but I think one of their recurring themes really goes to show how "dudes" overcome conflict: "Hug it out, bitch":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZvarRe-XVQ

In my life, I've actively tried to hold few grudges here and there and it's really hard. Takes way too much time and effort.

@Smita,

Ha ha ha... extra brownie points for using the term "FIFO" to descrive your milk consumption strategy :D LOVE IT!

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Interestingly enough, I've found that I've always gotten along much better with male bosses than female bosses. I find male bosses easier to work with because they tend to be "matter-of-fact" about work-related stuff. My relationships with female bosses tended to be more cool and there was a definite sense of hierarchy and lines that Could Not be Crossed.

That said, I'm running a startup company with two female partners and we have a great working relationship.

Speaking of estrogen and testosterones, I've come across a couple of blogs written by transexuals who grew up as males, but at some point, their body actually transformed naturally into a female body. Apparently these people have genetic and hormone anomalies that cause this to happen, and for them it was a really tough experience to go through and they had to eventually go through medical procedures to complete the transformation and counseling. One such blog is http://aebrain.blogspot.com/ - her story is probably somewhere near the beginning but you'll have to wade through.

I can't even begin to imagine what it would like to be to grow up thinking you're one sex, and then your body says, "oh, by the way, I'm going to start messing around with your hormones and flip the switch on you".

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@Aaron,

Lol… could be my husband has some mild form of OCD...:) Since he also doesn't like to eat leftovers.

I like how you described the perfectionists. The truth is that perfectionists are no more perfect than anyone else but they are always in pain since the imperfection glares them in their eyes constantly...:) and they suffer for it. Simple example.. I had a typo in the previous comment… I misspelled "there" as "their" and I was so tempted to ask @Ben to fix it for me… But I didn't. (In the comment before that I had made him fix my em tag mistake..:) So I'm getting better I guess.

@Ben,

You are right. In The Female Brain book she also talks about that how hormonal changes in teenage girls makes them want to connect with people and that's why you see teenage girls chatting away to glory and at the same time boys may be just sitting in backseat of the car immersed in a video game. So that's one of the reasons why we see more boys in science and math stream than girls. But then this is not always true. I loved math throughout my school years and then took up physics/chemistry/maths in college with physics as major. I think there is a certain expectation society or parents put on boys vs girls. That also makes a huge difference.

Regarding women boss vs men boss, I think it comes down to how confident the boss is and if they feel threatened by their subordinate's abilities or think that they can use their abilities to further the team goals. It is always hard to work under an insecure, inefficient manager male or female. Since they lack in expertise they make up for it by being control freaks. I was a manager until after I had baby then I took up more of a lead architect role (so now i do everything except attending the boring managerial/auditor meetings… :). I don't think I was that bad of a manager …;) Then I have also met and briefly worked as a consultant under a women manager and she was the worst since she was not technical and she had tough time trusting my decisions. For example… "do the tables need to be normalized?", "why can't we keep the description field in all the related tables"… oy vey.. I had to tell her… do you have any RDBM experience… lol… it was tough. I did a whole project in CF8/Sql Server 2005 from the scratch for that company and it is used and appreciated by all the users since last 2 years. But since this lady hated my guts, she hired EMC consultants to re-write the whole application all over again in .Net but I heard she is copying all the functionalities I did in this application feature by feature. The interesting part is that the IT head who had hired me totally understands that they should not have wasted so much money in redoing but seems like this lady who works for him has a bigger pull with the CEO. I actually had gotten the major part of this project implemented before this lady came into picture. Strangely enough I feel bad for her that she felt that way. Anyway I just feel it's more of a personality issue than men vs women. We just find more issues with women since there are so few.

As @Lola mentioned, she works perfectly with two other women as partners. The key is knowing one's strengths and using that to divide the responsibilities while being open for suggestions.

@Lola,

Regarding transgenders, it's very scary. When I was pregnant I was so afraid about that... I won't mind if my son (who is 2 now) is gay (but i think he is very straight... flirts with girls with shy smiles...:) but transgender is something so hard for parents to come to terms with.

@Ben,

You don't drink? Not even occasional wine?

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@Lola: I agree with you in that I have found males easier to work with in the workplace AS A GENERAL RULE than females for the following reasons:

1. Men have been more easy-going so far in my experience than women. A prime example occurred this morning when we had this huge project dumped on us. Actually, we had already had it dumped on us, and I had finished the initial requirements, but the people who were requesting the project dumped a whole new set of requirements on us, without giving us an extension on the deadline. My male supervisor told the female "project owner" bluntly and flat out that we will try to get it done, but it probably won't be by the due date with ALL of the new requirements. I LOVE him for this. I'm still going to try my hardest to get it done, but it feels nice to have a little more breathing room!

2. When I have worked with men, they seem more task-focused, and I am a very task-oriented individual. Though there are men who are incredible gossips, I have found gossiping at the water cooler occuring less with males than with females. Men don't sit around and gossip about other people, as a general rule, but I have been in offices before where the females would, and nothing would get done.

3. Men seem more focused on work and less on petty arrangements. By that, I mean this: we worked in an office once that had a kitchen that had a sink in it. One day, someone left a bowl in the middle of the sink, washed out. Now, granted, it was left there for weeks, but the females in the office threw a hissy fit, spent time posting flyers about keeping the kitchen clean, hours writing up and sending emails to everyone in the office about someone leaving a bowl in the sink. C'mon. I was so busy with work, I barely noticed it until I was flooded with these emails and flyers being circulated around the office. Seriously? It wasn't like the bowl was filled with left-over oatmeal or cereal gathering flies and/or bugs sitting on the countertop. I felt like all of the activity going on around the office was very counter-productive, and considered going and washing and putting the thing up just to not have to deal with everything. Someone probably left it there on principal, just to make a point. And a lot of the buzz about the bowl was female-centered, and this is just an example, but I have noticed a lot of offices that were female-centric HAVE been like that. Ladies, we are shooting ourselves in the foot here!

about the blogs you mention. I bet it is much easier for a woman who turned into a man than a man who turned into a woman. Because I think a woman would be much more open to that kind of thing...to being with someone who has been through that than a man would. Can any man back me up? Is there any man who would say...yes...I would be with a woman who has been a man naturally and turned naturally into a woman? That is my hypothesis...that it would be easier for a woman turned into a man in terms of dating than a man turned into a woman.

Speaking of, @Ben...I have a few comments about the hormonal thing. Estrogen and Testosterone are wonderful hormones, and there are several indications to suggest I have a great abundance of both. I am probably the exact female opposite of you. Meaning, if there were some kind of test and I could take it, without looking at me, it would probably be VERY easy to think that I am a male. I have participated in just about every sport that exists on some level - basketball, soccer, volleyball, wrestling, competitive running, martial arts-related sports, swimming, kickball (lol) etc....you name it, I have participated in it. I have even done some flag-football and football for recreational purposes (fun). I realize some of the sports in my list could kind of be considered "female sports", but that's kind of besides the point. I could really get into sports and games if I had the time and/or was seeing someone who was really overly passionate about it. I enjoy watching, but at times have difficulties, because I wanna be in it. Furthermore, since you brought up the subject of Math, I am excellent at Math. While discussing the men and math thing and the testosterone thing, I'll go ahead and interject that the current genius who is probably considered one of the top people in physics/math is a guy. The 12 year old who has apparently cast a huge shadow of doubt on the big bang theory is male:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110320/LOCAL01/103200369/Genius-work-12-year-old-studying-IUPUI

that kind of makes sense in terms of the male/testosterone/math thing, but getting back to my original point about testosterone, I excel at math. It has always just kind of been my thing...numbers...calculations...

Also, on the side of me having higher-than-noraml-for-a-female levels of testosterone, I can make significant increases in muscle strength and mass if I actually commit to working out and lifting. I lifted weights and did weight training as a part of a competitive running team in high school, and noticed I could lift more than the other girls and had a seemingly higher level of increase in muscle mass when I did this. Also, as a rule, men build muscle on top...arms, women build muscle easier on bottom...legs, than they do on top. I have pretty good upper-body strength, and can build muscle up there ok for a girl. :-)

But, on the looks side of things...I could show signs of being male if I took a test IF the person couldn't see me, but in terms of looks, I am considered very feminine. It goes beyond me having long hair. I am fairly top-heavy, very much shaped like a woman. My shape would definitely suggest at least higher-than-normal estrogen levels. There may be other things other than that that would suggest the same. For example, I have a very feminine, rounded face...not a masculine face with angles that seems so popular in movies and on the catwalk, and in general terms of looks/models these days. The only male correlation here is that I am shaped what they say is like a man..."like an upside-down pyramid", however, it is in a very feminine way. I don't have huge legs. They claim that a lot of women have huge legs, smaller tops, and are shapped more like a pyramid, whereas men are shaped more like an upside-down pyramid. Anyway, I digress.

This discussion kind of reminds me of an episode of house that I watched recently...I think the episode name was "skin deep". It is about this beautiful supermodel who had the perfect feminine body. The quote I remember from the episode is:

"...because you're immune to testosterone. You're pure estrogen, which is why you get heightened female characteristics; clear skin, great breasts. The ultimate woman is a man."

http://www.housemd-guide.com/season2/213skindeep.php

In the episode, house said that we all start out as females for 8 months (or something...don't remember exactly, but I think it was 8 months), and then those of us with the "y" chromosome get testosterone, or rather the abundance of it that gives men the male characteristics. I guess when people have the rare condition this character had, they are immune to the testosterone, so they don't receive it, or whatever, and so the male characteristics don't even present themselves. This was a good episode, if anyone could watch it, good one to watch.

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still... its hard to have complete trust in something that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die.

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@reggie, you might want to reconsider that statement. You, yourself, are the result of someone who bled for 5 days and didn't die from that.

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lol... i'm not here to start a fire. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm pretty sure everyone's a product of both sides, not just one gender. I find the idea slightly entertaining and almost insulting to say one gender is better than another because its a debate that goes nowhere and somehow makes people all emotional for nothing.

But if you're game for debate, damned if I'm simply going to lay down my guns because of something not in my control. I'm coming with all barrels blazin'. Bring it!

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@reggie,

Lol... Your comments might just have given more points in the for of the argument that women are superior than men...:)

The best men are they who have feminine sensibility. I know few such men and I adore them.

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Hey, the obvious needed to be said sometime in this thread. Its light-hearted wisdom best said.

Sure guys can be impaired mentally if a cute girl walks in. An easy solution: have guys work in environments with less cute girls - IT. That'll keep your mind straight in the freezing basements. However, for a great number of ladies, there really is no hiding the idea that every month they can be impaired mentally, emotionally, or physically in some, way, shape or form, or a combination of them. I've never seen training to control that, and if there is, more women should sign up. Hell, give me the link. I know a few dozen that could really use it.

If people are having to take tabs and measure points to prove a view simply against another, then obviously the point being justified isn't realized. Therefore, the other is more than likely to be true... at least for the moment.

Read between the lines:

Chapter 4: Women Are Better Spies

Tell that to Lara Logan

Chapter 15: Women Are Better Students

Good, they're starting to learn to follow orders better

Chapter 27: Women Are Getting Better Looking Faster Than Men

Nice! That means tomorrow I'll have an advantage of looking better to the younger, hotter girls than the next batch knuckleheads coming out of college.

For fuel to the flame!

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"have guys work in environments with less cute girls - IT" now there's a self-esteem boost to keep me through the week.

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@Lola,

In college, I took a "Human Sexuality" course with Professor Joe DeBold (awesome course). In it, if I recall correctly, we learned about a community somewhere in which all the children are raised as girls until they hit puberty because the community at large has some genetic issue where the sex organs don't develop until the onset of puberty. It was something unusual like that. Can you imagine that - not even knowing what sex you are going to be until like age 13.

@Smita,

No, I don't drink. Although at the last CFUNITED my friend Ken got be a Pina Colada with alcohol in it. I drank half of it; then I got nervous that I was gonna get sick and throw up in front of everyone. I didn't feel sick -- but I started to get paranoid :D Clearly, I have zero experience with what my body can handle.

@Anna,

Honestly, it wouldn't shock me if I had lower-than-normal levels of Testosterone. I'm pretty mellow and thoughts of sex don't cloud my brain 24x7. I can appreciate the female form without immediately scheming and thinking how I can have it for myself. And I love romantic comedies :D

I actually had it tested once and the doctor said it was in the normal range. But that was years ago. Maybe I'll get it tested again one day, now that I'm a bit older.

@Reggie,

Ha ha ha ha:

An easy solution: have guys work in environments with less cute girls - IT

The way I look at it, sometimes, the pendulum needs to swing in both directions before we find an equilibrium. Since women have been discriminated against, historically, it's probably healthy to engage with contrasting opinions. If nothing else, it forces you to stop and think.

@Kate,

"have guys work in environments with less cute girls - IT" now there's a self-esteem boost to keep me through the week.

... I've met Kate in person and I can vouch for her hotness :)

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@Ben,

Lol... You have to start with a good wine at home or at friend's place where you won't be paranoid. Hard drinks are no fun other than if one wants to get drunk. Cocktails can be tricky and may sometimes make one sick since they have so many different kind of alcohol mixed. But try a margarita since summer is approaching, you may like it. The key is to knowing when to stop...:) I'm no expert, just saying from my own experience. I tried my first alcohol drink a champagne at age 26 and I hated it and still do...:)

Good to know that not all men think of sex 24/7. I had asked my husband te same a while back and he had said the same. So most of these studys are based on certain number of men not all. Also men are known to show off their masculinity by confirming to norms. So who knows if they were not lying when the study was conducted...:)

I think it's a sin to raise immature, insensitive children, so it is a duty of parents especially mothers to teach their sons how to be thoughtful and considerate. Seems like we women have lot to do to change the pattern.

Oh yea... If one is not working in some cave, there are tons of beautiful sexy women in IT. Again it would also depend how one perceives beauty...:)"

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I didn't read all the comments closely, but did anyone point out this eventual problem?
1) More females being born
2) They're getting more attractive, faster
3) Men are rendered useless when hot women are within sight.
4) Women are nurturing.

Thus, in the year 2525, if man is still around, all us guys will be sucking on bottles, completely useless, because we'll be enamored with all the hotties around us. ;-)

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@Randall,

At that point men may be just forced to develop some super power to remain viable...:) Won't that be cool...:)

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There are more and more beauty products/procedures out there which might account for the "more attractive women" factor. Thing is, it's not...well, natural for men to engage in beautification processes.

This doesn't mean you have to be a slob or have poor hygiene, but there's usually a segregation between "pretty boys/effeminate men" and your average run of the mill Joe.

Men are hard wired to be attracted to women for their nurturing/caring nature, and women seek men for their protection and provisioning. These aren't true in all cases, but are often a foundation.

One's opinion of what love is, is also subjective. Where some people will state that many males are more prone to confuse love with lust, whose to say that their version of love isn't right or wrong?

My biggest gripe. If you're gonna love me, love me for who I am, not for whom you want to change me into.

And NO. MORE. MIND. GAMES. You want admission that you're mentally superior to me, fine, I'll get it in writing, frame it, even make the website; there, game over. Just eighty-six the mind games, would you please?

Also; come to the realization that "Nothing" is a legit and honest answer for "what are you thinking?".

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@Aaron,

Ha ha ha... i like your last statement "Nothing" as a legit answer to "what are you thinking?". But it's very hard for women to buy that answer since we would think either men don't want to share or they are incapable of explaining in words what they are thinking/feeling...:)

I don't think women are there to prove they are better than men, actually it is the opposite... at the core in a relationship a woman wants the man to be superior in all possible way since that gives them a sense of success. So this may sometimes appear that women are constantly trying to nag/change their man into certain way. I'm excluding the cases where the relationships either have run it's course or not a best fit, where both men/women wish for change.

Regarding definition of love, you are right it differs for each individual. But the most common factor for people in love is the higher self-esteem when in a loving relationship, that is how you like yourself when you are in a relationship is a pretty good gauge in determining if you are truly in love. Yes, it's possible to be really in love and miserable at the same time. It's also possible to be in love and perfectly happy while not expecting any lust or favor at play. Someone just makes you to be a better you... that's a very good feeling.

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@Reggie: That is so untrue that there are less cute girls in IT, at least in my world. In my world, there are very, very, VERY hot girls in IT. It's true that there are not a lot of them, but there are still some and they are very good-looking indeed. So maybe it is where you are at, but where I am at, the ladies in IT are very attractive. And these are women that most any guy would at least be able to say, "she is very good-looking", even if she wasn't "his type". Want a picture? lol

@Ben: That is SO cool about the community where they raise them as girls at first. Very cool. I doubt seriously that you have problems with too low of testosterone levels, and the thing that would make me doubt low testosterone levels is your ability to build huge muscles rather easily and quickly. I don't think you'd be able to do that with ultra-low levels of testosterone. But I don't know...I'm no doctor, and you certainly know yourself and your body better than I. :-) The fact that you love romantic comedies...that is awesome! And even more so is the fact that you don't think about sex 24/7. So, a woman-friend of yours could be hanging out with you at your place, programming with you, and it is hot there, and she could strip down to nothing and you wouldn't even think of sex? COOL!!! That is so awesome! I was in a relationship like that where my ex and I hung out all the time without clothes on and we never did it. It was very liberating! He and I had the best relationship ever. It was so awesome, and we were so much in love. :-)

But one of the best things about you is the fact that you don't drink, so PLEASE don't change that! Ok, no pressure...if you want to, then feel free to, but it would be so very cool if you didn't. :-) If you want to feel hip and still drink the kind of stuff that other people drink without drinking the bad stuff, check out Izze. it is AWESOME!!! It is a carbonated beverage, so it is like soda, but it is made with 100% pure fruit juice...no sugar or any of the bad stuff added. (so it will be good, even if you follow a diet for bodybuilding) And it is SO TASTY!!! At least to me, it is. And when it comes to drinking, I usually just get a "virgin" version of the alcoholic drinks, and I find them excessively yummy. So I walk around with virgin drinks, and still look "cool" like I am drinking, but I really am not. :-) HEY...don't get me wrong, I am doing nothing to mislead people...if they ASK, I tell them, no, I am not drinking, this is a non-alcoholic version. But if they assume, I just let them assume. :-) I don't really care what other people think about me, at least not when it comes to drinking.

@Smita: I find it wonderful that guys do not think about it 24/7, and I agree with you that men a lot of times are trying to keep up with what they think society's norms are. Like, they say they have a higher drive than they really do. I have found that to be true. When I am discussing drive on dates before I commit to a man, and I do that, because I do think that everything, or a lot of things, should be out on the table before a couple starts getting serious and actually dating, I have found that most guys lie and say they have a much higher drive than what they have, or maybe it's their perception of their drive that is lacking, and they THINK they have a higher drive than what the have. The truth of the matter is that MOST guys do not have all that high of a drive, and there are a whole lot of women that have higher drives than most men. The difference really is between desire and action and ability to control it. Yeah, I may want it 24/7, but I have the ability to control that impulse, and don't do it because I know it is more fulfilling in other ways to wait and not give into my basic animalistic drives. But with men, it's different, because a lot of times, they have no ability or desire to control it -- they can not see the further good in holding off and waiting. They would rather have instant gratification in place of long-term satisfaction that comes from holding out and waiting. So I think that is the main difference instead of just pure drive and desire.

also, @Smita, I agree with you 100% also on the fact that it is the parents' responsibility to raise good men to treat women with respect. Unfortunately, a lot of parents fall short of fulfilling that responsibility, and a lot of really unworthy men are being turned out as a result. And women aren't really being "raised" any better, but for some reason, women seem to mature so much faster, that even when they aren't raised all that well, a lot of times, they turn out OK...but men just really go downhill fast and really bad when they aren't raised well, it seems. It seems like it takes a lot more to raise up a man from the bad place where he falls when he hasn't been raised well than for a woman. But I could be wrong, these are just my observations from what I have noticed in the world around ME, but it could be different in other areas and other cultures.

@Aaron: Some of the women of today are NATURALLY beautiful, and it has nothing to do with these procedures, products, etc.

@Smita and @Aaron: I too love the comment, Nothing" as a legit answer to "what are you thinking?". For the record I almost NEVER ask a man, "what are you thinking?" Come to think of it, I don't remember a time when I ever have. I guess that's just because I am so wrapped up in my own thoughts, I really don't care what the other person is thinking. haha...lol. That's a little bit of the narcisist in me coming out. But, really, @Aaron, what would you rather have, a woman who is caring and actually cares about what you are thinking, or a woman like me who is so wrapped up in her own thoughts that it just doesn't even cross her mind to ask you what you are thinking?

For the record, I am not being purposely mean or selfish or self-absorbed or whatever by not asking or thinking about what the other person is thinking...I just am not making a conscious effort to ask or to care or think about it.

@Reggie and @Lola (and @Smita also), on the wars of men having super-powers and which one is really better...really. REALLY. Do we have to even say it? Do we have to even go there? Ok, seriously, not like no one has thought it, but it obviously hasn't been said, so I guess I am going to have to be the one who says it: If it ever came down to it...like, if, for some reason, for whatever reason, it came down to it to where ONE gender had to be wiped out (but not both), and the choice HAD to be made which gender could survive on earth and continue the species and which gender could really REALLY be wiped out and it not REALLY matter, then obviously...it would be women staying and men being wiped out. Really. It could work. Women could get the stuff from men, store it, and get the artificial thing done, and have the babies, and then, when men were born, that would take care of continuing to get enough juice to continue the species before the obvious had to occur and the men had to be wiped out again...it could work. Plus, tons of the stuff could be stored. And trust me, even if a lot of men put up a fight, the juice really isn't that hard to get. It could still work. NOW...I am NOT saying I wish this to be the case or I hope it happens or anything like that. And I am also not saying that I don't see any value in men other than that. And I am certainly not saying that I wouldn't miss men or that there wouldn't be things about men that I would hate not being there. But, I'm just saying it is possible. On the other hand, there is no way men could survive on earth past 1 generation if all women were wiped out. Just a thought.

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@Smita,
Women are chatty chatty chatty. And it's not a bad thing, kittens are just very social creatures, so it's almost natural that they have a very active mental pattern. I can't speak for all men, but when I say I literally have nothing on my mind, I pretty much mean that; and it's not to put her off on asking me the question over and over, but it's the God's honest truth - I really ain't thinking about a thing!

I kind of wish women would just ask less abstract questions than that. My personal preference is not to talk at all, just just to hug and give smooches. :) But I'm not against talking, the only thing I really don't like is forced conversation. I feel awkward with those. I've been going through personal changes lately and am trying to be more outwardly focused (really like the feeling of giving and making others happy)

I took this test: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes1.htm

And it says I'm a ISTJ (Introverted Sensing Thinking Judging), aka "Inspectors". A good description of which can be found here: http://keirsey.com/4temps/inspector.asp

In short, if you actively seek to make her happy, and in doing so makes yourself happy, then your drug is doing what it takes to see her happy.

@Anna,
It's not that I wouldn't want a woman who's concerned for my well-being, but one who thinks that I'm either (a) lying or (b) irked at her for asking when I provide her a legit response of "nothing".

If she asks a less abstract question, like "Do you love me?" then I could respond more dynamically, and truthfully say something like "If you were strapped to the train tracks and there was absolutely no way I could save you, I would stand in front of that locomotive in a futile attempt to stop it without a second thought."

I just hope she doesn't question my motives. I don't have to have a mind running a mile a minute with thoughts (which I'd just stress out over)

===================

What confuses me is that many women have self-esteem issues. They can be very pretty and sweet and be constantly looking for approval from anyone, even those who are abusive.

For me, I just want to reassure and comfort her, so that when I see a smile cross her face and I know she is content, then all is well. My problem is that I sabotage myself because as is stereotyped, you always hear that women are fickle, and if she's content now, she'll want to change things later and cause friction almost for the sake of boredom in her contentedness.

Wow! Contentedness is a word! It passed the spell check and everything. Shack!

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@Aaron,

Not all women are chatty and niether they are all kittens. You may just have met women of one type. In the beginning of a relationship it's only natural for one to seek assurance or feel insecure and more so if one is in an abusive relationship. If the woman needs constant assurance that she is loved then that may mean that she somehow senses man's aloofness and lack of interest in her. Also it may mean that she doesn't have a fulfilling life of her own and somehow she wants to fill it with more attention. My point is it is wrong to judge all women or men with some stereo type personalities. That just makes you miss out on opportunities to experience different type of people.

Genuine love and care doesn't need to be spelled out verbally, the other person would know automatically. So even if you say you will give your life for her means nothing to her. But rather for example forwarding a nice article that addresses her unique taste would let her know that you cared to know her and thought of her when you read the article and realized that it would make her happy when she reads it. Sometimes respect plays a bigger role in sustaining a relationship than just love. Because respect always means love, but love may not always mean respect.

Yes women can ask silly absurd questions like "do you really love me?" and when you answer "yes", she would ask "why? or how come you love me?" and that's a tricky question and no single answer would make her happy...:) - i used to like my husband's answer to "Do you really love me?" he would say "Nope, I don't love you. Just want to spend my life with you...:)"...I guess I had annoyed him with such absurd questiions enough so he had come up with a way to answer that won't go into a spiral...:)

The way you put contendness it sounds stagnant and boring. Being content means ever discovering new interesting things on your own and as a couple. Somehow your comments makes me feel that you put a larger responsibility on the woman to make the relationship work than being an equal or at times more emotionally involved. Also everything need not be pre-defined and it is also okay to try, fail and get hurt in relationships since that helps you discover your true self. Also sometimes it is okay to let oneself feel or not feel without constantly trying to control and follow a set pattern.

Lol...I took the quiz and it turns out i'm a "counselor" type...go figure...:)

http://keirsey.com/4temps/counselor.asp

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@Smita Samal,

You're taking my text TOO literally. I wasn't speaking for all women. Technically, I can't even speak for one. Try not to read my response with the notion or belief that I'm saying "all women" in front of each remark. Of course all women are different, it would be naive to think otherwise. I'm a protagonist for individuality.

This would be the same thing as me saying that your comment of "Genuine love and care doesn't need to be spelled out verbally, the other person would know automatically" is wrong because I personally don't agree with that statement. But I'm sure what you meant was "FOR ME, Genuine love and care doesn't need to be spelled out verbally, the other person would know automatically..." This more objective view would be a better way to have read my response; it sounds like you took personal offense to me calling some women "kittens". That wasn't the intention; but I have met some women who were sweet, playful and independent; akin to a kitten's personality. No derogatory inflection inclusive.

The song lyric, "All you need is love" is not one I subscribe to. As you have hinted, there are other aspects of a relationship that need to be present and maintained for success, and mutual respect is, IMO, one of them.

If a women, by chance, wants the reassurance that she is loved, far be it from me to indicate otherwise unless my feelings have changed. Some people are insecure and need that assurance; some may have abandonment issues. Nobody is perfect; to me, if putting a smile on her face genuinely makes ME happy, then an easy way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone (there's that efficiency thing in me) is to work at making her happy. But I'm not blind, if she does not reciprocate looking out for my well-being as I do her, then we do not have a mutual respect.

If contentedness sounds boring to you (and no, I'm not being defensive, this merely outlines my response to a woman who has a similar belief) your type of response to that is the EXACT thing I fear in a woman. A woman who is bored with a man who tries to keep her happy and fulfilled. There are SO MANY MEN out there who see women as nothing but an object and a conquest, and as cliche as it sounds that it's almost tragically comedic that women fall for these types, and end up hurt by them, I would think that with as intelligent as many women are, they'd open their eyes to see the bigger picture. A woman who seemingly takes for granted that I would put myself in harm's way without a second thought just to ensure her an easier life and to give her things she wants... That fickleness in the status quo; that is what I fear with women. When everything's working well, they want to change things up and keep you guessing. They want to proverbially pull the carpet out from under your feet for what seems to be no logical reason whatsoever.

I. DON'T. LIKE. MIND GAMES. I don't appreciate them, and in short, they aggravate the hell outta me. I appreciate a woman who can be straight and to the point with me... (Like the Inspector)

As far as responsibility goes, I'll be DAMNED if I ever expect her to put more work into making the relationship work than I do. It's not a case of I sit back and be who I am and ignore her requests for changing me. She just needs to understand that changing me into a person who I am not simply means that she does not love me for who I really am. I love her for who she is. In fact, I would say something along the lines of "I'm sorry about yesterday, because as much as I thought I loved you then, it's nothing compared to how much I love you right now." If I have an annoying habit, sure, I'll work on that to stop annoying her. But, again, in the (sometimes) fickle mannerisms of women, how many times have we heard a woman wanting a guy who has traits which are polar opposites of each other? "I want a man whose sweet and kind, but is a bad-ass who plays by nobody's rules but his own." Yeah, we call those people PSYCHOPATHS.

I'm a perfectionist, but I'm also a realist (go figure) I know that relationships can fail, and the best thing to get from it is to learn and grow, and if you're up to it, try again. But many men are creatures of habit; I'm VERY (VERY) forgetful, so to not be in a routine means I will forget and miss more things (seemingly absent-minded). Like the test said, I'm an Inspector, and we're super dependable, dutiful, look for efficient ways to do things. If a woman wants, at the core, things opposed to that, then it's just not going to work out, and we should go our separate ways.

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@Smita and @Aaron:

I took the test for fun, and is it any surprise I got for the appropriate careers engineering and programming? :-) Although I did find it kind of difficult to take the test, I changed answers SEVERAL times to a lot of the questions. I think they should have some sensor on there that tells how many times you change your answer on specific questions and figure that into the equation as well. :-) I am just so analytical, and I will analyze things to death sometimes! But that's just me. There were some that weren't yes or no questions, but "it depends", and some that could be worded differently. For example, the one that says, "Often you prefer to read a book than go to a party", that one depends on what book it is and what kind of party it is. Sure, if it is a party where there will be all kinds of illegal drugs and alcohol, and people chugging down alcohol and acting immaturely, sure, I would rather do ANYTHING just about than go to a party like that. I would rather have 3 root canals than to go to a party of that nature. And if it were a really good book, then I would rather read that book than go to most parties. However, if it were a party of friends getting together, hanging out, and just having a good time in general without the drugs and/or alcohol vs. a semi-interesting book I somewhat have to read for work, then I would much rather go to the party than read the book. That's just an example, but there were several like that where it didn't necessarily have just a straight yes or no answer. But I did my best with it. :-)

@Aaron: a lot of guys get very annoyed when you ask them if they love you. But really, you shouldn't have to ask a guy that question, he should be in the habit of telling you regularly that he loves you, but a lot of guys get annoyed nonetheless when you do ask. I have found there is a series of questions and things, unfortunately, that is on this list of what not to say to a guy, or to rarely say to a guy. Unfortunately.

I guess this is part of the reason I am such a narcissist and so inward-looking: because so many guys feel uncomfortable with "this" and "that" question about themselves, that you just get jaded and afraid to ask certain questions. I have been heavily, heavily, HEAVILY criticized for having asking such questions, and openly and harshly berated and ridiculed, with the guy saying, "don't you know you aren't supposed to ask a man such questions?" to the point to where I just don't anymore. So, I have all of these thoughts that have to be directed somewhere, so as a result, they ended up getting directed inwardly. Because when I have in the past expressed concern outwardly, I have been berated to the point to where I just don't want to have to deal with that every time I am concerned about someone. So that is a huge part of the narcissistic thing.

@Smita and @Aaron: if a woman is so insecure that she needs constant reassurance, and I mean CONSTANT reassurance like ALL THE TIME (not just the occasional asking, but literally all the time), and if she is looking for someone else to fulfill her life, then she is probably not in a good place at all to be involved in a serious relationship. People really need to be comfortable with themselves and in fulfilling lives themselves before they jump into a relationship with another person, because oftentimes, if that is how they are, they will most likely just drag the other person down. If you are heavily attracted to a person like that, and you really, really love them, then the absolute best thing for you to do for that person is to tell them that you really care deeply about them, and because of that, you are going to hold off getting too serious with them until they can get a hold on their own lives. Obviously, you don't want to be cold about it, but I am sure there is a way to phrase that that won't sound distant and cold. But that is what would be best for that person. You can go out with them and enjoy their company, but they really need to concentrate on becoming a person who is happy with their own lives before trying to jump into a relationship with another person and relying on them for their own happiness. There aren't too many things better than a relationship with another person who is happy with themselves already when you are also already steady in who you are as well. Then, you can focus on the relationship itself and on the two of you as a couple instead of being focused on either one separately, and that is so fulfilling and wonderful.

@Smita, I LOVE your example of forwarding an article to her. I used to be in a relationship where he and I would constantly throughout the relationship get little things for each other that reminded us of each other. For example, if he loved baseball, I would purchase a baseball frame for him and put a picture in it of the two of us at a baseball event. Or go out of your way to do something that you really don't care that much for, but for them, because you do care about them, baseball being an example for me. :-) And do it without complaining or expecting the same from them, just so you can enjoy being with them. When you have a relationship like that, it is a wonderful thing, and you are constantly reminded of the fact that the other person cares about you. And I agree with you 100% about respect...mutual respect is one of the strongest ways you can show someone how much you care for them.

@Aaron: The reason that so many women out there still fall for the men who see women as nothing but an object and a conquest, is because no matter what the extreme feminists say, there are still a whole lot of women out there that want the security, and they still want the man who takes care of them and protects them, and the provider. The lazy man has fled from women of this nature, because they would rather label her a "gold-digger" and say she was all out for money than face the truth that she really, REALLY only wants to find a man with whom she can feel secure, both financially and in other ways. And it is totally and completely NOT the case that she CAN'T take care of herself, but it is just that there is something flat out raw and sexy about a man who can, and it seems just so masculine...so yeah, it is easy for a lot of women to fall for these types. UNFORTUNATELY, it is so very often the case that the men who ARE very good providers are ALSO the male-chauvinistic type who really do see a woman as a conquest. If there were more of the nice, sensitive type of men who were in touch with their feminist self but who could also be great providers and protectors of women, then women would be falling for them, believe me. That man wouldn't be able to SHAKE all of the women off of his arm that were flocking to him. But, unfortunately, that just simply not the case, and those men are very, very, VERY rare. And believe me, when a woman finds that kind of a man, then she has the death grip on him. lol! Because it is so hard to find.

And oftentimes, a woman doesn't necessarily realize he is the male-chauvinistic type until it is too late, because this is very easy to hide, and a lot of men who do it well (especially successful men). And they may not even be attempting to hide it purposely, but the women have such blinders on that they just simply do not see it or notice the warning signs. So they get involved and too deep into it and then it is too late. By that time, it is very difficult to get out. So that's often how that happens.

@Aaron: And about the mind games thing...often, women play mind games with men, because they pretty much MAKE us do that. Sometimes, when you are trying to have a conversation with a man about something that is important to you, and they keep putting you off, saying they are too busy to have that conversation, or they don't want to, or whatever, you end up HAVING to play mind games with them. Or sometimes, there are other reasons. I am not making excuses for playing mind games, I'm just saying that there are a lot of men who don't give their women much of a choice.

I have traits that are the polar opposites of each other: I can be so extremely adventurous and love to take risks, but at the same time so careful not to take hurt and make sure that what I am doing is done "the right way". I can be extremely to the letter on some things, like for example a work assignment, etc., yet in other situations recognize that the rules need to be broken in order to get something done. There are some other ways which I will not get into. But the point is, that it is possible to have two GREAT qualities that are the polar opposite of each other and yet have them in the same person.

One more final comment, and I will conclude: one absolute litmus test for love for women and if a guy truly, TRULY loves you is if you refuse to have sex with him, and he still stays with you and does not pester you for sex, and continues to develop the relationship with you knowing there will not be sex or the promise of it. Because men are SO attuned to sex, one of the few ways to ensure that it is not that or the promise of it that he is interested in is to simply not have it (and to put that out there in the very beginning). I was watching a show once, and there were these detectives involved, and they were walking away from a man who was in a relationship with this woman, and one of the detectives said, "now I know that he loved her." The other detective said, "how do you know?" And the first one said, "because he went all of that time with her without having sex with her, stayed with her, and still stayed faithful to her. No man would do that without love." And that is so true (actually not "no man", but most men. There are some of the asexual type that would have no problem doing that, but those are few and far between). But it's true that for the most part, a man will NOT stay with a woman that he is not genuinely interested in if there is no sex there. So that is really the litmus test for whether a man 'really' loves you or not. I had a guy tell me flat out that he was not interested in developing a relationship with me because of that. That told me right there that he wasn't the least bit interested in ME as a person, but in what I could or could not give him. And so, we both got our answer -- I avoided having to be in a relationship with someone who was all out for himself and what he could get out of it, and he was able to go and try to pursue a woman who was ok with him being there for that reason.

@the person who brought up the nagging thing, and anyone who things women nag too much....MEN NAG TOO.

Ok, I conclude. :-) Must get back to work now.

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@Aaron,

I'm just trying to understand your point and giving some counter prospectives. I'm not taking anything personally since I know the type of women you are describing may just be even a woman at one particular phase of her life. Since stereotypes can only be discussed in comical sense. Each individual may at best have multiple stereotypes interwoven in them in a complex/unique way.

One can't make a woman happy and fulfilled and even content in her life by trying. Either she is happy or not and same is exactly true for a man. Women are attracted to looks, confidence, intellectual mind, caring and leadership qualities in a man just like a man would be attracted to similar virtues in a woman. If women are attracted to bad boys so be it.. just like if guys are attracted to beautiful girls who may just not be into them. That doesn't mean future is doomed for good natured and okay looking or even ugly people. I'm a big believer of "everyone has something uniquely special in them" that they must figure out for themselves first before others can see it in them.

I doubt any woman is out there trying to play mind games just for the heck of it. It may just be her way of figuring out another person's intellectual level or she may just be joking. If one is true to themselves and honest, mind games would just fall flat in the end. A man should only worry if he is keeping up appearances that he is himself struggling with. So end of the day how secure one is in his/her own skin that makes others feel comfortable and attracted to them. Relationship goes through various phases, but what keeps it together is whether their intellectual wavelength match and the reasons that they decided to be together in the first place. Prospective changes with time and priority in life changes. So one day if a woman is running after a dashing play boy, the next day she may be looking for someone who can be a great father to her future children. Among us there are givers and takers. The givers among us are most happy when they are needed and be of use to others and the takers among us are most happy when they are fully provided and taken care of. So when it comes to some women who constantly seek attention, i believe some men like such women since they feel needed and feel good about themselves that they can provide that attention to the woman. Even though I would get annoyed by such women, I do see there are such couple who are very happy in relationship since they fulfill each other's needs. It's basically stepping out and finding the best match out there for oneself. While one is in the conquest for this perfect relationship, it's good to check on one's own feeling now and then. It pretty much let's you know whether things are on right track.

@Anna, in my view, sex or no sex is not necessarily a good indicator of whether a man truly loves a woman or not. It's mostly whether both are happy with each other beyond the necessary physical and materialistic needs. Then there is something called unconditional love that is rare and heavenly. This need not be just a romantic kind. That's why one can be in love with multiple people at the sametime without being unfaithful to anyone in anyway.

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@Anna,

I don't ever find it helpful for me to berate a woman if she asks me a question over and over. I'll pry to find out why it's of such importance to her, but personally I would never scold or berate her for an inquisition. Sometimes, guys do jump quickly to aggravation rather than putting effort into finding a resolve. I can understand if such a thing did happen, that you would refrain from doing the same because of the negative response you got.

Women want security, and I'm fine with that, but many (not all) women are rather bad judges of character; they are either smitten with the qualities that are not lasting or pertinent or aloof with the qualities that DO have lasting impact. TO THIS DAY I don't understand why women will repeatedly put themselves in harms way to be with a man who hurts them over and over. Men are logical, much less emotional, and I just don't see the logic in this.

I can agree with you that many men are chauvinistic. Personally, this DISGUSTS me to see a woman as something to be conquered or end up as a notch in my belt. I see no honor in treating a woman like that. A woman is to be cared for, and loved and treated like a goddess, in hopes that she'll return that love in the unique way women do. I see and agree with your point too, that maybe you cannot fault women for being bad judges of character when so many of the darn apples in the barrel are bad to start out with; very bad odds for them.

I also sympathize with them if the man doesn't seem that way to start out with. At the beginning of a relationship, both parties can often be responsible for acting in a way that is completely not their actual selves, and this is misleading; ending only too late do they find that people weren't who they thought they were.

My thing is, you see so many women fall for the wrong type of guy, when you yourself ARE the sensitive guy they all SAY they want, and the hypocrisy of the entire situation is just as comedic as it is tragic.

About the mind games; I would rather a women just be up front and honest with me. If she ever told me "I feel like you have been putting me off or avoiding this issue" and I realized that I WAS, I would be overly apologetic and hear her out completely.

Why? Cause I lack the one thing just about EVERY WOMAN WANTS in a man: Confidence. I have ABSOLUTELY no confidence in myself (but I'm not looking for pity, I'm fine with this) But because of this, I also have next to no ego. Would I ever apologize to a woman? Of course. Do I feel I need to be in competition with her? Of course not, we're on the same side. I don't have to worry about the common "male ego" perking its head up here and interfering with the relationship. You can't ask me to "just have confidence", I don't have it, won't get it; it simply isn't me; and if that makes me unattractive, so be it. As hypocritical as it sounds, I like being a humble person. I don't see a woman as anything less or more than my equal. And how dare anyone think they're worth more than someone else, I say.

If you have 2 great polar opposite qualities, I won't deny that such is possible, but I guess it's just a conundrum and conflict with my personality. If she doesn't love me for my personality (my TRUE personality after all the showboating at the beginning of the relationship is over) then she simply doesn't love me. I crave consistency. When I see a woman go from one extreme emotion to another, it tells me she is a slave to that emotion and has no control over herself.

I fully agree with your litmus test. Mutual respect. If she says no, then that's the answer. Many guys who are told no will not tolerate it and cut the relationship there (good riddance) The only thing I'd ask her is if there is no sex for the time being to "prove" myself, that's fine, but she'd better no deny me hugs n' smooches. :) It would be torture to see a girl you loved and to be told to keep your hands completely to yourself. If she DID ask for that, out of respect you should, but that is a bit unnecessarily cruel if you ask me.

I brought up the nagging thing, and yes, men nag too; nagging is not restricted to women only. But let's just say that I've been nagged to a point where it is a complete and instantaneous deal breaker.

She could be rich, drop dead gorgeous and love me with all her being; but if she nags, I will 180 and run til my heart gives out.

I just don't want to hear it.

Many women take that name VERY personally, and I do NOT equate a chatty women to a nagger. Nagging specifically is centered around useless complaints, opinions and directions that are designed to negate my freedoms.

"Honey, can you help me with this?" - not a nag.
"What you should do is..." - nag.
"Can you take out the garbage?" - not a nag.
"Don't leave your towels on the hamper." - nag.

How could that last one be handled? Don't give me a command, ask me a question. "Could you please place your towels in the hamper?" Don't tell me with SHOULDs "You should...", ask me with COULDs "Could you..."

It's the same way back. I don't ever TELL her to do something, I ask her if she could. She is not mine to command, she is 50/50 in the relationship and her input and feedback is as important as yours should be to her.

Men see women sexually. They lust and desire this. THAT is not bad nor is it a problem. It is how the man ACTS on those instincts. If he treats her like a conquest or treats her like a goddess, either way he can still have desire for her; he just needs to make a chivalric act of a noble and respectable man, and not the chauvinistic, indignant act of a dis-respectable one.

Try to see your woman as someone on YOUR side, not someone you get to argue with. And she IS "YOUR" woman, she belongs to you. But this is reciprocal. You are HER man, and you should act in a way that makes her happy and proud that you belong to her.

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@Smith Samal,

No problem, if you're "COUNSELING" me on just feedback, then I see neither of us are taking anything personally, and that's the best way, IMO, to address this. We're just giving perspective to each other, I can respect that.

I agree with you that there is little point in trying to make a woman content if she is not happy with herself first. I like they saying that "You cannot take care of others until you have taken care of yourself" So that is of vital importance to ensure she is at that point in her life where your efforts in making her happy can be reciprocated, and she both sees and appreciates that you take the time to look out for her well-being.

My quip about women being attracted to the bad boy thing is rife with a kind of sour grapes only because I don't like seeing women get hurt and when this common encounter plays out in the woman getting hurt, I feel as equal parts "You should have known better" as I do "Aww, poor girl, she didn't deserve that".

I've called a couple girls out on mind games, but they've never answered why they do them. In all honesty, I'm a bit inquisitive as to why they do it; but I might chalk it up as a feminine mannerism that is just as confusing as masculine ones.

I condone the sentiment you have on perspective changing the game; we all change as we grow and what we want and do in life can change just as drastically.

But to me, the "excuse" that men are hard wired to procreate is not a legitimate one, but the impulse is so to the core, that it can be used as a very successful (but not 100% of the time) method to determine whether a man respects a woman via abstinence.

I mean, it's a sad state of affairs that it would come to that in order to determine a man's character, but let's face it; nobility is dead, and men just can't be put on the "honor" system. It's the "black sheep" mentality, except rather than it being the actions of a few that ruin it for everyone, it's actually the actions of the majority which do it.

Sure abstaining from sex isn't a COMPLETE indication of a person's love for someone (it's more a test of will), but it can do a good job weeding out the majority. :)

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@Anna, You need to send me a photo of you and your co-workers. You sound like a hottie! ;-)

@Aaron, You need to get laid ;-)

You said you lack confidence. There's a total downward or upward spiral men are always on. If you get rejected, downward. If you succeed, upward. So sounds like you just need to go out and meet some girl that's less attractive than you and take her out. I'm married now so it's easier-said-than-done, but sounds like you just need some positive experiences. From that, I think you'll gain additional understanding of what you need, and maybe you'll be less cynical and frustrated, which is what I read in your responses. BTW, it's off-putting.

Additionally, just find more groups to join and maybe you'll meet a nice girl that way.

Unfortunately, it's the circles (of people) in which we are placed that seem to help or hurt us. I've been in jobs where I was in a small circle and met nobody worth keeping in touch with, and yet now I feel like there are several women I would date (ask out) -- if I were single. Why did I get married!?

<shrugs> Maybe my view of women got raised after I got engaged and therefore no longer feeling the need to play all the games.

I will say this: If you're not confident, you won't attract any good girls. To gain confidence, you'll need to figure out WHY you aren't confident in yourself/your abilities/your <fill in blank> and work towards gaining that confidence. I've been on both sides of the fence, and women know EXACTLY which side you're on.

Good luck.

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@Aaron,

Women are neither goddess nor devils...but would prefer to have some witch power...:)

@Randall,

Ha ha ha... "Why did I get married!?" - You are funny...:)

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@Aaron:

I agree with you 100% that it can help in weeding out the majority, and boy do they need weeding! I also scratch my head at women who go back time and again to men who physically abuse them and make excuses for them. I have a friend who has a boyfriend who is abusing her physically. She makes excuses for him and says she wants to "help" him, but I wonder what on earth she sees in such a sorry excuse for a human being. He would not last in a relationship with me very long, as I have taken 5 or so different forms of martial arts in a period of more than 8 or so years, and I know how to keep myself from becoming the victim. And it's one thing if a woman becomes a victim without knowingly going into the situation, but it's kind of another if she continually goes back to that situation time and time again, knowing that he is going to abuse her. Especially when she breaks free of the jerk to begin with, and THEN goes back to him. I'm not saying she is asking for it, I just have to wonder what is wrong upstairs there...

Women and men do GENERALLY seem to be different in a few ways. I am not saying one gender is superior to the other really, I think both have both strengths and weaknesses, and I think that unfortunately, a lot of people are focused and concentrating on "equalizing" women and men when in fact they should be celebrating our differences and learning how to use them to compliment each other and enhance our lives and strengthen the bond rather than try to say the differences don't exist. That being said, men and women should have equal RIGHTS, but they aren't "the same". I think that OVERALL, yes, men and women are probably just about equal, because what men lack women have in abundance and vice versa. The world was purposely made like this, even though a lot of people would rather just ignore that and try to make men and women equal in all ways, and try to pit men and women against each other in some sick kind of competition. Now, that being said, if I hear some argument or read of some disagreement going on where people are trying to say that men are a superior gender to women, I will stick up for my gender and point out our strengths and places of superiority, but I am only engaging in an already-existing discussion at that point an sticking up for the little guy, as I enjoy doing. But in general, I really feel that men and women both have strengths and weaknesses, and the beauty of life is being able to play off of both of those.

@Randall: hahaha...what's your email address? lol You are funny, but thanks! I try to be humble, I really do. But what I hate worse than someone being extremely arrogant/cocky to a very annoying extreme is someone who is having "fake humility". It's great when someone is humble naturally, that is a GOOD thing. But I hate it when someone is hot and they KNOW it, and someone gives them a compliment, and they are like, "no I'm not", but you can tell they really think they are, and they are just doing it to get more compliments. THAT is annoying to me. I would rather have someone who is cocky/confident, and sure of themselves than someone who is trying to put themselves down only to get compliments. Now, that being said, genuine humility is really a good thing, and something I can appreciate. And I can usually tell when someone is being genuine and when they are faking humility.

And I try really hard not to cross the line into arrogance. I feel like there is a thin line between being "confident" and being "arrogant". Part of this difference, IMO, is that people who are arrogant only think highly of themselves whereas people who are merely confident and in a good way may have a rather high opinion of themselves, especially in certain areas, but they think other people are great, too. That's how I am...I'm just a positive person. Yeah, I think I have some great qualities, but I don't think I am better than anybody else, and I recognize that everyone has their own great qualities. And when it comes to looks, I am fairly confident, but I may lack confidence in other areas. And I say lack confidence, but its really a matter of knowing what my strengths are and what they are not, and so I do know what my weaknesses are. Looks and intelligence, I have a pretty high level of confidence in with myself. Art...drawing or painting a beautiful picture. Not so much. I highly admire people who can do those things I can not, but I think that's what makes the world go around...all of the people in it and our unique talents and strengths and weaknesses and what each person has to add to the world.

Ok...back to work. :-) I do rather enjoy these discussions. :-) Keep them coming!

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Mind games . . . ugh. Fortunately, I haven't had to deal with that in my life, so it would take me a while to recognize that something is going on.

I think women who do this usually grew up learning that to get what they wanted, they had to manipulate other people into doing it their way. Hard habit to break.

I think also that some of the people who play mind games are also sociopaths. Whether they be male or female, these are people you really need to be very careful being around. Even more difficult if they're your blood relatives.

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@Randall,

lol. Getting laid (casual sex for the sake of sex and not love) doesn't interest me. Not sure if I put off the wrong vibe, but I wasn't looking for any pity. I'm really not that interested in attracting anyone at the moment; I'm more focused on my career for the time being. I don't see my lack of confidence as anything THAT bad. Sure a lot of women like it, but ah well, I just don't have it; it really is of little concern to me in all honesty.

In all actuality, I've turned down more people than have me, but I hear you that rejection is part of the game; I definitely don't let it get me down. There's no point in forcing one's self onto another if they don't want a relationship-I try to see it from both sides.

I don't know what to tell ya. Some people are funny, some people are great speakers, and some people just lack confidence. It's never really bugged me or held me back to any degree that I've seen, but a chance for self-improvement might be exactly what I need.

@Smita Samal,

I don't think you give the bewitching power women already have enough credit! Men's mind turns (more?) to mush when they are charmed by a lady. We make the normally idiotic things we do seem almost transcendent in comparison. :)

@Anna,

Here here. Any many who strikes a woman is a coward in my book, and deserves any retaliation they get for it tenfold.

I agree with you completely about celebrating the differences between men and women. Would you rather have chocolate and/or vanilla, or just have it merged into choconilla without ever being able to just taste one or the other flavors? :)

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@Aaron:

I agree with you about the chocolate and vanilla thing. My favorite is those twisters that come out of the machine where you have both chocolate AND vanilla, but it isn't all mashed together, so you still get the distinct taste of each, but together. It just doesn't taste as good separate. I am glad you aren't running around actively chasing and pursuing a relationship. There are a lot of desperate men out there who feel like a relationship is what would fulfill them, and they are running around, chasing and trying to get in a relationship, but it's really a catch-22 at this point, because the more they do this, the less women will find them attractive or want to be in a relationship with them. Very few women find that level of desperation truly attractive.

I don't think your lack of confidence is necessarily a bad thing, even if it may not attract some of the women you would prefer to have in your life. I am glad you are cool with that. And some day, some woman may come along who finds that particular quality of yours very attractive, or she may be able to make you feel very confident indeed. As long as the lack of confidence doesn't degrade into low self-esteem. Another reason for my high level of confidence is that I grew up with one of the lowest self esteems of anyone I have ever known. I literally thought at one point that I was the ugliest person on earth. It took me years and a lot of work with myself to pull myself out of that depth. And once I did, I did not want to go back. That was the most horrible place to be. So I risk being cocky/arrogant not to go there. Although I do not want to be outright cocky and arrogant, I would STILL rather be that than have as low of a self esteem as I had. Because as annoying as it can be to be cocky/arrogant, it is STILL worse having that low of a self esteem.

What really stinks about mind games and women playing them is that it gives some men the impression that for ALL women, "no" means "yes". For me, "no" means "no", and a guy better respect that. But, unfortunately, so many women have played that particular mind game with men that they get trained into thinking that "no" really does mean "yes", and then they treat the wrong girl that way.

About the man's mind turning to mush thing...there was a House episode about that. House had hired this new doctor, and when she said something, he thought it was brilliant until one of the other doctors reminded him it was not. And he had a lot of trouble figuring out when a girl said something brilliant or not, because of that very thing. It was a pretty entertaining episode to watch.

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@Aaron,

  • Any many who strikes a woman is a coward in my book

What if she strikes first? And strikes again? And maybe she is the abuser -- mentally and/or physically? (just stirring the pot, not saying I'm on the other side).

Okay, maybe not 'laid' but sounds like you need to find some nice girls. You sound burnt out with Ms. Wrong.

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@Randall,

A man should not strike a woman, even if she struck him first. A man should be strong enough to block or find another way to avoid the strike rather than just strike back. A man should really just never strike a woman at all, period. He should have enough strength at the very least to walk away. But if that isn't an option, then he should find another way. There are a whole lot of ways to avoid or deflect a strike rather than strike back. For instance, he could hold her hands and prevent her from striking again. There are so many ways. There really isn't an excuse for a man hitting a woman, unless, of course, it was some sort of an accident. Even then, men should be careful when they are swinging that no one is around that they could come into contact with.

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@Anna,

Thanks for the good advice, it seems very sound. I'm glad to hear you could pull yourself out of that bad place on your own steam; that's very commendable and takes a lot of willpower.

@Randall,

Anna put it perfectly, but I want to add one thing. The ONLY time you should strike a woman is if she is coming at you with a weapon. Slapping you, even punching you; take your punishment, restrain her, but never strike her. Walk away from it. However if she is putting your life in danger with a weapon, that is crossing the line and taking it one step too far.

If she is the abusive one in the relationship (and these things do happen), you should restrain from doing likewise to her, and just move towards ending the relationship and putting space between each other.

I'm even fine with yelling at the top of your lungs at her if you need to vent your frustration, but NEVER NEVER strike her.

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Yeah, if a woman is coming at you with a weapon, then by all means do what you can to disarm her or get away from the situation, using your best judgement.

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I'm not being abused, but there is a bit of a "double-standard" of sorts. Some women are downright cuckoo (kicking/screaming/hitting/pulling out the kitchen knives/abusive) then start crying when somebody else comes around to make it look like they're the victim. I got suckered in to one of those types of situations.

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For me, if she kicks, screams, punches, slaps, it's all reason to get away or just restrain her.

The moment she picks up a weapon she will be punched and, if I'm carrying, shot.

The difference between the latter is that she's now threatening your life with lethal force.

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I don't think abuse takes the extreme turn out of blue, most of the times it must be in works for a while, so necessary actions should be taken before it gets to the point of physical violence. Usually people who continue to stay in abusive relationship suffer from various level of stockholm syndrome.

While there are lots of physical abuse cases, there are even more cases of emotional abuse where one partner is either highly possessive, jealous, constant criticism (nagging), financial control etc. While physical abuse can be easily and clearly detected, emotional abuse goes on for years and sometimes leads to violent outcome or depression or changed personality which then negatively affects the offsprings.

Regarding mind game, Lola pointed out that sometimes it can be within family/extended members such as emotional blackmailing. I feel this is mostly done by people who always want things from other people and not self-sufficient or insecure and instead of directly expressing their needs (as they may be somehow ashamed of themselves) they express in indirect way which is even more hurtful. People mostly see or judge the world based on their own failings such as if one has an wondering eyes is surely going to suspect the partner of the same.

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I agree with @Smita that often times, the physical abuse will not start out that extreme right away, and there will be a huge lead up to it. And the key is to getting out before it gets that extreme. I will interject also, that I have had weapons defense classes, and there are also ways to disarm someone without hitting them. Also, it is very unlikely that hitting them will lead to a BETTER outcome than disarming them another way. Usually, if you try to hit someone who is holding a weapon, their natural reflexes and reactions will put you right in the path of the weapon. Whereas restraining them and/or disarming them is the much safer choice, as it doesn't put yourself in the way of the weapon. That being said, if someone is coming with you with a weapon, you are by all means within your rights to try to do whatever possible to not get hurt by the weapon. But, it shouldn't ever get to that point, and if your relationship is on the track of becoming very violent on that level, it's best to just get out of it first before it reaches that level.

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There was a time when the public was invited to have a sitdown and talk with a local Sheriff about an incident where a man whom they had responded to came at an officer with a weapon, was fired upon, and died from his injuries.

The gross belief was that the public thought that officers were trained to disarm the subject rather than harm him. But the truth of the matter is, that even though less than lethal options are preferred, the officers were trained to defend themselves when confronted with lethal force WITH lethal force in return.

They won't fire a gun at someone coming at them with fists, but this subject had a knife. The public thought "Guns are more powerful than knives, so the officers should have tried to disarm him rather than shoot him", but the bottom line was that the knife is seen as lethal force, and lethal force was justified.

It's the same thing here; don't have a male ego and think you can take on and disarm a woman if you've had no training just because she's a woman. All it takes is wild flailing with a knife to do some serious cutting, and most of the time, bleeding out from the wound is why a knife is so dangerous.

Also, if you've pissed off a woman to the point she's thought about taking a knife to you (and the woman was, for all practical purposes sane before she met you) then you really need to have a psyche evaluation done on yourself. :) I don't think "Incites homicidal feelings" is something anyone is looking to be matched on at eHarmony.

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If someone is flailing wildly with a knife in his or her hands, evasion is really the best response. Because coming anywhere near that person is really dangerous, and if you are going to hit them, you are going to be coming really near them with a part of your body that can easily get cut. The point that I was trying to make is that if someone does in fact have a knife and is in fact trying to cut you with it, hitting them is definitely putting a part of you body in harms way, and doing that is risky. However, I will say, that we did learn in training that if someone is flailing wildly with a knife (or anything else for that matter), then they are LESS likely to hit you than if they were clean, precise, and accurate. For just about anyone who has had training, you know that when someone is flailing wildly, they are much less likely to hit you, and especially to hit you and do damage. I think I was going to say something else about self esteem, but I forget what that is, so I'll save it for when I remember.

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@Aaron,

I get a feeling we are getting into the discussion of right to arms...:)

I think cops need to be better trained to resolve a situation without fatality. But unfortunately some of them shoot to kill and shoot at people who may not be armed. I agree they have tough job. They should be better trained.

BTW, if you don't mind, i'm just curious, a direct question for you: do you own a gun? (Please don't answer if it's too personal) - If yes, then man, you are confident!!!

If a woman is that crazy and coming after with weapon.. then i think the best option the man has is to "run!"...:) But more likely the woman may attack when the man is asleep... lol.. i'm cracking myself up...:)

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@Smita and @Aaron:

I agree that if the woman is that crazy, she will probably be attacking while asleep. The best thing in that situation is to get OUT of the situation...like you said, run, and then don't come back until you have two people with you. It would probably be preferably that those people are law enforcement, or something of that nature who are armed and equipped to only use the weapons if things get out of hand, in order to settle up and/or get whatever stuff you have left that you need. Otherwise, you just really need to break all ties with that person. Why would you want to stay with someone who had come at you with a weapon? Also, you would really only need to go back if you had stuff that needed to be settled up and/or stuff that you had left that you need to get. Other than that, you probably should just cut all ties with that person.

Also, there are some legitimate reasons as to why a woman might WANT to bring a weapon on, if anything, to equalize out the fight. If a guy has been beating her until she is black and blue, and then she FINALLY grabs the knife so that she is on somewhat equal ground with him, I am really not opposed to that. Or if he has done something else to provoke her or make it necessary to bring a weapon to the fight. So if the guy has given the woman some reason as to why she needs the weapon, that's different than if she just randomly comes at the guy with a weapon. At that point, of course the guy should do whatever he needs to in order to prevent himself from getting hurt, but if he has given her a reason, he really needs to approach and take care of that reason first.

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