The Business Of Making Love
Posted July 27, 2008 at 10:01 AM
I know that communication is one of, if not the most important aspects of a successful, long-term relationship. I know that. I believe that. So, why is it so hard to have open communication? In my relationships, why have I held back what I wanted to say? Why have I, time and time again, simply turned the other way when something was bothering me or bitten my lip when there was something critical that had to be said?
| | | | ||
| |  | | ||
| | | |
There's no doubt that part of this "holding back" is an attempt to avoid confrontation. But it's also an attempt to be the "better person" or the martyr; to be the one that doesn't get bothered by this or that. And part of it is about compromise - some sort of unspoken compromise that if I don't mention X, I can do Y and not feel guilty.
Part of it, and perhaps a bigger part of it than I realize, has to do with the magic of love. By that, I mean the fairy tale, head-over-heels, ga-ga feeling that we want love to be. Shouldn't everything be perfect? To paraphrase "Wedding Crashers", love is the recognition of our soul's counterpoint in an another. Why would something so wonderful, so bigger than ourselves need to be concerned with the nitty gritty of every day life?
| | | | ||
| |  | | ||
| | | |
I think part of what makes truly open communication in a relationship so difficult is that it conflicts with the magic and the ideal. If we have to express anger, dislike, resentment, or hurt, isn't that an admittance that what we have is not magical? If it was magical, wouldn't things just work? Shouldn't it just be easy?
The other day, I was thinking about the movie, "American Wedding" (the third installment of the "American Pie" series). In it, Michelle, the female lead, is having some pre-wedding jitters. Jim's dad, who is the voice of reason throughout the series, calms her with these words:
"Why do you think, Michelle, they call it 'making love'? .... I think they call it 'making love' because you have to make love work. You know, it's about compromise and sacrifice. And I think Jim has sacrificed for you. My god, he shaved his entire pubic region, which would baffle most cultures around the world. But, but, he did it, and, and, and he did it for you."
| | | | ||
| |  | | ||
| | | |
Humor aside, something about this strikes a chord inside of me. I need a large shift in the way I think about romantic love. Rather than let this concept of work ruin the "magic," I have to start believing that the ability to constructively work through problems is not a negative aspect, but rather part of what makes my relationship so magical.
With this new outlook, there is something epic that we need to wrap our heads around: we are not perfect. And as such, we cannot be expected to act perfectly of our own accord, nor can we expect that of others.
That might be the biggest problem with relationships - the illusion that we will all be perfect without any structure or framework to promote that behavior. The next biggest problem is probably that when the illusion of perfection is broken, it is met with resentment rather than with construction.
So, how do we fix this? Often times in life, when I am confused or unsure as to how to proceed, I take my problem and transfer it over to another domain, a domain to which I am less emotionally involved. Traditionally, this has been the domain of platonic friendship; when I am confused in the ways of romantic love, I think about how I would act if the situation were not romantic. This has helped a bit, but tends to either fall short or not get acted upon.
"Not get acted upon."
Even if we can make all of the required mental shifts in how we view romantic love, the inability to act will effectively negate all of our efforts. What we need is a framework in place that doesn't leave the decision to act up to us.
The second I had "framework" in my mind, I immediately thought about work. Here at Epicenter Consulting, we have amazing communication. And that's not because we are amazing communicators (although we are pretty good); we have great communication because we have a framework in place that forces us to have it. We have something called the "End of the Day Ritual". This consists of getting together at the end of every day and asking the following questions:
- What is the next action for morning.
- What is the next action after that.
- Where there any emails communications of interest from the day.
- What is the biggest constraint and how do we solve it.
- Are there any changes in procedure that need to be addressed.
By performing this ritual every day, it takes the human factor out of communication; it's no longer a decision to be made or an action to be done - it's simply part of the daily routine.
So here's the breakthrough moment that I had not so long ago - if this works so well for business partners, would this not also work well for romantic partners? Imagine if every day, my girlfriend and I took 5 minutes right before bed to ask similar questions. I think just the act of setting this time aside every day would lead to a major improvement in communication for several reasons.
First off, I have a theory that if this becomes a ritual, it becomes less pressure. A sort of relationship version of "Don't hate the player, hate the game;" having something potentially confrontational to say will not be as scary once it is part of a framework, cause, hey, that's the way we "play" our relationship.
Secondly, by doing this every day, we would be nipping things in the bud that otherwise might grow out of control before they are even addressed. How many times have you become so irritated by something and then exploded when really the whole thing could have been avoided if you took two seconds 8 months ago to just say, "Honey, you know I love you, but would you mind not doing that, it gets under my skin a little bit."
Lastly, it will simply facilitate communication that otherwise might not take place.
But what questions should be asked? I think the questions need to revolve around solving problems or preventing problems from occuring. Here's what I propose (each question asked by each participant):
- Is there anything you need me to do tomorrow?
- Are there any upcoming events that I need to know about (birthday, dinner, play, girls/boys night out, etc.)?
- Have I done anything recently that offended or bothered you?
- Is there anything you'd like to do that we haven't done ever/in a while?
- Are there any changes to our daily routine that needs to be addressed (wake up time, chores, picking up kids, etc.)?
When I think of all the points of friction in my past relationships, I think that the above list of questions would be effective in facilitating worthwhile communication.
At first, this might seem like a very awkward activity to do. It was for Clark and me. However, after you start to see the positive impact it is having, you will start go become more honest, which will of course lead to better overall communication.
I think the biggest push-back people might have for this End of the Day Ritual is that it takes away from the "magic" of love. After all, shouldn't my perfect girlfriend know when my birthday is? Or shouldn't my perfect boyfriend remember that the Christmas party starts at 5pm sharp! Shouldn't he or she just know that I hate it when he chews with his/her mouth open? I mean, come on, who doesn't know that?!? Why should I have to tell him/her that I'd like to go out dancing once in a while? Should he/she just know that I like to do that from time to time?
Well you know what - we're not perfect! Rather than worrying that this imperfection takes away from the magic of a relationship, let's embrace it and put a framework in place the helps to ensure that we all have the best communication possible. We're human. We're fallible. It's time that relationships get run with that in mind.
| | | | ||
| |  | | ||
| | | |
Comments (31) | Post Comment | Ask Ben | Permalink | Other Searches | Print Page
Ask Ben: How To Build A Home Gym
iPhone 3G - One Week Review Of The Apple iPhone 3G Black 16 Gig Model
Reader Comments
Dude.... You need a girlfriend. :) (j/k of course)
Posted by Don Bellamy on Jul 27, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Spot on, Ben. After being married nearly 18 years (yes, I do remember that my anniversary is next month!), I can vouch that love is work. There is the romantic love; from the moment I met my wife nearly 20 years ago, I knew, absolutely knew, she was the One. It took several months, over the course of a deepening friendship, until she came to the same conclusion, but so much of that is a feeling. It often comes back again, that feeling of romantic, soul love, but it's not a constant. What is a constant is that I love her.
Note the use of the word 'love' in that last sentence: it's the VERB, not the noun. A feeling is a noun, it's just a thing that happens, but love is a verb, it's an action, it's something we have to DO. There are times where one or both of us doesn't feel much love, nearly always when communication has gone out of focus, but we are always trying, working, making, doing, those things we think love requires. What so much effort? why all the work? why not the spontaneous 'let it all be good' hooey? Simply because we love each other. Any time I'm slipping or feeling out of sorts, I know that I need to focus on some of those things that she wants / needs, because that's what it means for me to love her.
So, basically, I'm saying that you're spot on when it comes to the communication, but you're also on the right track that the 'romantic' side of love, love as a feeling is fleeting but recurrent (yay!), but the act of love can be a lifelong commitment to work.
Last, but not least, IMHO the effort is worth it because it builds a real relationship worth having!
Jason Fisher
Posted by jfish on Jul 27, 2008 at 3:46 PM
I totally agree with your points on this. Though, I can't say I've managed to become I great practitioner of the end of day routine, I can definitely relate to problems it likely would have squashed early on.
As you may be familiar with, starting a company (or being part of a small company for that matter) can really throw some added variables into the mix and has no doubt given me some great habits and some crappy habits dealing with those stresses and managing the relationship with my girlfriend better. Many of which better communication would improve.
Thanks for sharing this post.
Mike.
Posted by Mike Kelp on Jul 27, 2008 at 3:48 PM
You show depth of thought in all of this post. It doesn't seem to be based on experience, but hey... we all start from somewhere! :)
Your business is based on a relationship you and a 'few' others have achieved. That same relationship won't work in every situation. In fact a good question is, 'What percentage of the time would it work?'. (And I am not claiming to have the answer to that question either.) The key concept is 'relationship'. People have different ways of 'seeing' (or hearing, or touching, or experiencing, etc.) the world. What does this mean... a marriage (ideal) is two distinct or similar personalities coming together for a unified/harmony. Business is mostly at the end of the day about acquired services, goods or resources (money being the most common equalizer).
You see, we know what we are trying to get out of business. The bigger issue is most people have no idea whatsoever they are trying to get out of marriage. Many get married so they can 'live happily ever after'. Whew... that's a formula for... err, uhm. WHO KNOWS! It's not a formula, it's throwing chemicals in a vat and expecting the love potion to come out the end of the process. Yes, my point is there are tangible gains for life long relationships. (Note: Some people don't want a life long relationship as a point of requirement... they look at those as 'trade-offs'.)
My wife and I have been married for over 20 years, and this summer my parents just had their 50th wedding anniversary. The grandparents were married till death did they part on both my parents side. This by no means makes me an expert as there are uncles and cousins who just didn't know how to make it work. The anger they had was because they wanted it to work and felt cheated.
What are some of the things that make things work for my wife and I?
* Spending "time" together
When you spend more time together you start to learn how each other thinks. This will be good for the most part but as you both get to know each other better there will be things you have to "work through". The better relationship is the one where the other person knows that even though some things about who I am on the inside are not initially pleasing, my live love is committed to getting through in spite of my imperfections. My love is going to be patient and understanding and as possible supportive even of differences of opinion. This will be something again that most relationships will either learn to work on or the point of failure for others.
* A common foundation
There comes a time were we all falter or have views that don't match even those who are our most intimate friends. With that said having something we both agree as being bigger than either of us has been good in both directions in our relationship. Yes, for us it is a common faith in God but I have known others who had other things that supported the relationships than in my own.
* Expect Change
You have a rare relationship if the person you live with today is the person you married. (I am speaking of more than physical change here.) One of the good things that can happen in a good relationship is as we age and loose control of our 'physical domain' we gain more control of our person. We transfer our life from dreams to visions. Dreams can make for frequent compulsive bursts of effort. Visions go beyond the need for compulsion to the steady undercurrent that pushes on to our values. In the tortoise and the hare the hare was the dreamer (literally also, lol) but the tortoise had a vision.
In relationships it's the shared visions that help walking through life in the long range much more than the need for a compulsive surge to motivate. One of the things that 'can' make for a deeper relationship is learning and following after common visions. Even if we don't achieve those things just the knowledge that we get to go through life with someone who shares our inner most being is awesome.
Enough said on that. Just remember men and women are typically different in how and what we think. Not just men and women aren't alike, but neither are two men or women. The magic is 'relationship' more than 'process'. We don't need to move "frameworks" into the relationships... we need to simple pursue our partners as the priority of our lives. Much can be learned on the path that cannot be learned by 'the wilderness guide to love'. :)
Posted by John Farrar on Jul 27, 2008 at 3:59 PM
...and you thought OO was complicated :)
Posted by John Whish on Jul 27, 2008 at 5:11 PM
I really like your end of day chat idea. I'd just have three bits of feedback:
1. Be patient. Like you said, we aren't perfect, so give eachother time to improve. Depending on the behavior in question, it can take anywhere from a few days to years to change.
2. Don't let this nightly chat turn into a scheduled fight. Make sure to talk about positive things as much (if not more) than the negative things you'd like to improve. And be willing to accept no for an answer. Sometime she just won't agree with your perspective, which is Ok. She'll eventually come around. ;)
3. Don't hammer eachother about every weakness you noticed throughout the day. I'd suggest you let your partner chose the behaviors THEY'D like to change, in themselves, and then use those as a starting point. Each night you can follow up on the day's progress. Also, it's probably better to pick a small handful of behaviors to focus on instead of trying to fix everything at once (which is overwhelming, and basically impossible).
</2 cents>
Posted by Jake Munson on Jul 27, 2008 at 6:50 PM
You'd be surprised how many couples don't communicate effectively with one another.
Back in February, my wife and I passed 10 years of marriage - we both work from home, in different jobs, and we have lunch and dinner together nearly every day, and we talk about everything and anything.
I think it's part of the success of our marriage. I've heard all kinds of excuses - the worst one is "There isn't time in our day"
WTH? Theoretically, this is the *most important person in you life*. No time? Screw that, time to re-evaluate your priorities.
I'll stop now before this turns into a blog post instead of a blog comment.
Advice: Go talk to your man/woman.
Posted by WTL on Jul 27, 2008 at 11:46 PM
Ben,
I made first comment without really reading your post, just figured any guy that has the time to most this many paragraphs on a Sunday needs a girlfriend. :)
I have been married to the same girl now for 20 years this June. We have 4 beautiful daughters together. Our relationship can be summed up in just a few words. We are best friends. We can talk to each other about anything. Neither of us are the jealous type, we know that each of us loves the other with all we have.
You just haven't met your match yet. You will know it the day you first talk to her. I knew it at that party back in 1987 that this girl was the one I'd spend the rest of my life with. There will be no reason to set nightly rituals with your soulmate.
Trust me, I speak the truth.
Don
Posted by Don Bellamy on Jul 28, 2008 at 12:19 AM
Ben,
I could write the same thing as Don has right above me. All I would do is change the years (14 and 1993). I would also add 2 sons to the list of 4 daughters.
We are best friends, we talk about anything, no jealousy and we give everything we have.
Brian
Posted by Brian on Jul 28, 2008 at 6:31 AM
Thank you all for coming here and sharing your intimate lives with me. It is touching, and it is nice to know that posts like this are not lost among my general readers.
I understand what some of you are saying about not needing a framework; my problem, I suppose is that I am just not the best communicator. If I have not found the "one" yet, then at least I can try my best to learn my past experiences and use that knowledge to not screw it up when the timing is right.
I guess the problem is that if I know I habitually do something wrong, and fail to be able to fix it just, I need to have something in place that will make that easier.
So last night, I ran this concept by a wonderful female friend of mine. At first, I have to say that there was a lot of push-back. There was a lot of "your idea is stupid and I will start picking it apart with little arguments." Like so many arguments that people get into, she was concentrating on the one or two times that it might not work, ignoring the possible validity of the greater concept. Slowly and calmly, I walked her through the pros and cons of my idea (as there are definitely trade-offs) and I have to say by the end, she actually thought it was a good idea.
The one change she suggested was to not do it right before bed. The conversations are not meant to be heated in any way, but it would be best to allow some cool-off time prior to sleep if they go awry. I think that is a good suggestion.
Posted by Ben Nadel on Jul 28, 2008 at 8:51 AM
You've given me a lot of food for thought . . . thanks!
Posted by Lola LB on Jul 28, 2008 at 1:19 PM
I came to a similar realization in my late 20's. I think I wanted each relationship to work so desperately that I ignored problems, or pretended they didn't exist, hoping they would go away, but eventually they all became big problems. After countless girlfriends I started to think long and hard about this and I finally attributed it to my incorrect belief that there must only be one perfect person out there for me or that good women were scarce, so I tended to place too much hope in the person I met and ignored or pretended that incompatibilities didn't exist. Deep down I had a hard time picturing myself with them, but I ignored it, even though there were big things that were deal breakers. I finally figured out that I must communicate more and speak my mind to expose these problems earlier. Good women are not scarce, they are plenty, but being honest with myself and my girlfriend by addressing the problems right away would have at least resolved issues before they became big, or parted a relationship with out huge fights and hurt feelings and before wasting a lot of time getting too deeply involved. It was much easier to speak my mind and expose deal breakers before a relationship even got started by weeding out some incompatible women quickly so I could get along to meeting a good one. So, I worked hard at this and I'll admit at first I felt really weird, but the results were surprising and it immediately became easy because wadda ya know?..., girls like talking like this. I got on to serious relationships with women that were more compatible and finally met someone I'm marrying in two weeks. The issues we have are easily resolved, we understand each other more and know the why's about what we do and have more empathy and understanding for each others imperfections. I guess that is a really vague generalized explanation of my experience, but anyway, you're right. It works, but take a few tries to get over the weirdness before you realize it ain't so bad as what you first thought.
Posted by CoolJJ on Jul 28, 2008 at 9:55 PM
I'd like to add a bit more to my previous comment after (you guessed it) talking about it with my wife.
Communication is very important, but even more important is that it be with the right person.
For many years, I've said that people should marry their best friend - who usually is the person you can talk about anything with.
Posted by WTL on Jul 28, 2008 at 10:45 PM
@WTL,
Amen to that. My wife and I were nearly inseparable friends even before we became 'involved', and we're still closer to each other than to anyone else. Not that we don't have other friends, because we both do, but at the end of the day she's still my closest friend, and it makes a huge difference in how we view each other and how we respond to issues in our relationship.
Posted by jfish on Jul 29, 2008 at 7:38 AM
Yeah, I think being friends with the person is a great indicator.
Posted by Ben Nadel on Jul 29, 2008 at 8:12 AM
Ditto (Adding a few thoughts)
I have also seen a few comments about "working on your partner". Most of us will work on ourselves if we feel loved and accepted. This business approach to relationships again may work for some, but I stand more in doubt that is the right approach over all. Yet, once we establish the love and commitment I spoke of in my last post the barriers to sharing a 'flaw' in our spouse is taken more easily as being concerned about them rather than about ourselves. Many changes people want in their spouse are changes to fulfill private fantasies. A good marriage is about love and belief. Yes, as we are able for our spouses benefit we should help them better themselves. Yet, if we married them because we were 'head over heals in love' then why are these changes so important? Or do we think if we say, make these changes and I will marry you that the person underneath will not just change back?
With that said, it has come to the attention of my wife and I that a BIG issue in marriage relations is 'how we pursue marriage'. People try each other out and when it fails they dump the other person. We get to intimate (aside from my social beliefs) to fast and then when things aren't working we jump into another relationship often without resolving the one we are in. One of the marks of this free thinking is a lack of personal commitment. (I am not saying this 'never works', rather that it creates a relational 'facade'... couldn't resist the framework term, LOL.)
My take is when I married my wife she was the only one for me. The things that were in her life at that point were enough and that raises a question. Do I want the changes because of me, or for her? I am far from perfect and obviously none of us are aware of all our flaws. Therefore, how important is this flaw to our 'relationship'? I want love and acceptance where I am and with the progress I am make, but do I offer that in return? It seems to me we tend to put 'life goals' ahead of 'relationship goals'. You have to make a choice in your priorities, what is is more valuable to you... the life goals, or the relationship.
In summary... I think the questions in the original blog post are good. Yet, the routine would be what I question. As we spend time together we see each others needs. If we are taken by surprise it's because we lack intimacy not because we aren't asking routine questions. If we are intimate and still miss them it is because we are focused on our benefit rather than the benefit of our spouse. There is much more that goes into this... but relationship building is something humans are good at mastering. Mastering relationships on large scale is a rare skill but we all can become master craftsmen at personal relationships.
Posted by John Farrar on Jul 29, 2008 at 9:44 AM
A wise woman once said...."What's love got to do, got to do, got to do with it? What's love but a second hand emotion"
A riddle wrapped in a mystery, if you ever work it out, let us know.
Cheers,
Davo
Posted by David on Jul 29, 2008 at 9:49 AM
@Davo,
An earlier post said it. Love is a verb, not a noun. That woman wasn't wise. I like my wife and she likes me, most of the time. Hopefully we love each other as much as possible even in seasons where there may be something we don't like. The mystery of love is acting with the other person's benefit in mind above our own.
Posted by John Farrar on Jul 29, 2008 at 10:09 AM
@John,
This is a very interesting point you bring to light:
It seems to me we tend to put 'life goals' ahead of 'relationship goals'. You have to make a choice in your priorities, what is is more valuable to you... the life goals, or the relationship.
I guess my gut reaction to this is, Why should this have to be a choice? Why do these have to be conflicting ideas? I am not saying that they are not - I know from personal experience that they can be very conflicting. But, I guess the question is, should they be conflicting in the right circumstances?
I like to look at my parents' marriage. My parents were together for over 30 years before my father passed. I remember him occassionally looking at me and saying, "I hope you find someone one day that you love as much as I love your mother." They were very much in love. But at the same time, I don't think either of them sacrificed their passions in any way. My dad worked long, grueling days (I often saw him only in the mornings), but he did was he loved all his life. My mother, on the other hand pursued her love of art, taking classes and creating an art studio at home.
They were both very happy (as far as I know) in this situation.
So what can I take away from this? The core message that I see is that you have to be with someone who is also passionate about *something*. If you both have "life goals", then I think that those can easily exist in parallel while maintaining a solid relationship. If, however, you are with someone who does not have a passion or a life goal, then I think it is too easy for them to make the "relationship" the primary goal, therefore forcing your goals out of alignment.
Abstracting this out, perhaps, it is easy two love someone and be happy with them when they do not make you and the relationship their only source of happiness.
Just some thoughts.
Posted by Ben Nadel on Jul 29, 2008 at 10:29 AM
@Ben,
Some people live on Islands and live off the sea. Others live in New Jersey and live off the city culture. Relationships are not complicated but they are often a surprise. They don't have to conflict, but relationships are about a mix of two outlooks. The two outlooks change over time. Keeping the relationship a priority is the choice we are talking about.
I personally think being married awhile and having children expands understand that life goals are not easy for everyone to nail down. One of the big reasons Franklin Covey does so many seminars is they help people discover both their personal and professional goals. Your parents sound like they found the harmony between relationship and life goals. I am SURE there were conflicts that had to be worked out. Perhaps they were mindful of this from the start and learned the mix before you were old enough to know this. I can say this... just look at the divorce rate... it isn't caused by lack of life goals. :) Everything goes into the mix, and you seem to be looking for the magic mix. Life and relationships are about living more than formulas. I think knowing formulas help in the day to day living routine, but life is full of things that don't get solved by the formulas. (Or you could marry a robot and be happy.)
Posted by John Farrar on Jul 29, 2008 at 11:14 AM
@John,
Of course my parents had their issues to work out. Everyone does. But I have seen people who are in relationships that are very uneven in terms of "life goals" and that puts a noticeable strain on the relationship every time.
I am not sure about the idea that life and relationships are more about living than formulas. Think about it - I brush my teeth after I wake up and before I go to sleep. I eat three times a day, roughly at the same time. I get my fruit salad at 11am. I take my vitamins. I have a workout routine that is scheduled in my week (roughly). When I go to movies, I like to arrive at least 15 minutes early to get good seats. I like to eat at quiet restaurants. I don't like walking around holding things in both hands (I like a free hand at all times). I have my electric and phone bill paid on direct-deposit. I have my calendar remind me when people's birthdays are coming up. I have my site email me every morning with random posts. I have a list of things I need to do at work. When people text me, I need to try to text them back within 24 hours. Every 6 months, I need a dental checkup. If I haven't seen a friend in a while, I should try to see them. I should try to take a vacation every X months. I'd like to see a movie at least every two weeks.
I could go on and on. Many things in life run efficiently because they have some sort of formula behind them. I think a lot of people can agree with this. Sure, a lot of this is day-to-day things, but isn't that what makes up life? ... of course, even if people agree to this, there is still something about relationships that makes people stop and think, Wait, I can't put a formula to this, this is special.
But is it really? What about all the self help books and the seminars? Isn't that really just a way of creating formulaic relationships? How to communicate, how to "hear" the person, how to be open to change, how not to fight, how to fight constructively, how to share chores.... I think all of these things serve the purpose of finding ways to automate that which is difficult in life.
Living is only worthwhile if it makes you happy. And, I think it 100% OK if that happiness is facilitated by architecture.
Just thinking out loud.
Posted by Ben Nadel on Jul 29, 2008 at 12:43 PM
The foundation of a good relationship is Love. And to maintain that love there has to be a little something called balance. My soon to be ex husband's passion was Soccer and so because I loved him I learned the game, went to the game, and supported him because that is what he loved. Unfortunately for me, my goals/dreams weren't supported. I think that when you love someone things have to be 50/50 I support you, you support me. I communicate with you, you communicate with me. There is no I in we. I am a woman and I believe that you need to please your man as much as you want to be pleased. It should never be just about you or just about him. Nothing makes me happier then to see my significant other happy. Therefore, my two cents is that without love and balance relationships just don't work. But hey what do I know I am about to be divorced :)
Posted by Jazzy on Jul 29, 2008 at 12:50 PM
@Jazzy,
I agree. Balance is key - it has to be a two way street, especially when you do something very time-intensive like give up a few hours to go to a soccer game. I was in a relationship once where I, on a weekly basis, was giving up hours to go to a Volley Ball game. It was fun, and I enjoyed doing it. But after a while, I felt like I was giving up too much of my time and started to attend less and less. Meanwhile, she was not coming to any of my activities (not that I really had any). But the point was, there was no balance. I was giving up hours of my time (of which I always feel like there is a scarcity) and she was not reciprocating in any way. It was quite unbalanced.
And then, as I attended less, it became a big issue. It immediately become one of those "Remember when you used to do X,Y, and Z?" talks. Remember when you used to like me and you would come to my games? Yeah, I also remember not having enough time to work on my hobbies. You think just because I don't ask you to watch me code that it is not time intensive? Why is it ok for me to give up my time for you and not ok for you to allow me time to work on my stuff.
Of course now, I am just sounding petty, most likely. But my point is that it needs to be balanced, as Jazzy says. You have to make sure that the "giving" and the "sacrificing" is not all in one direction. That's when it starts to feel like a chore... which may turn into resentment.
Of course, all of this might be avoided with great communication... if only there was a framework in place for it ;)
Posted by Ben Nadel on Jul 29, 2008 at 1:05 PM
@Jazzy,
So sorry to hear about your situation. I think you speak from a position of understanding, though, and your point ties in nicely with what John Farrar was commenting on earlier: the key is supporting each other. Balance needs to be as close to 50/50 as possible, and I love it that the comments here realize that doesn't mean that we each do 50% of each thing ... that would be dumb. My wife does all the cooking (she's really good at it :), but I can't necessarily always do the dishes even though I try as often as I can. My time is often spent with work, and I earn 97% of the income. In other words, we don't fight to split every little task 50/50, because it doesn't even make sense, although some in an earlier generation tried to teach that approach, but we do work to support each other, just as John mentioned earlier. Your attempts to share your husband's passion was a recognition of that; so sad that he was unable to see the other 50 and take ownership of a share of your life in the same way.
Posted by jfish on Jul 29, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Ben-
Exactly, and I am all for that framework :)
JFish-
I totally agree, balance for the important stuff. Although I am sure your wife is utterly grateful when you do the dishes every once in a while. :)
Posted by jazzy on Jul 29, 2008 at 2:33 PM
I've been married 14 years and I have to agree with you entirely. I also have to say that your recommended discussion points will come in real handy and I'm going to start trying this approach with my wife AND my boss.
And, ummm, I'm just going to keep putting the following identical comment on some of your posts:
You are a fine writer. I sincerely hope you will seriously consider writing professionally some day! If you don't know the story of the guy writing the Get Rich Slowly blog, you should check it out. He's a very smart guy.
Posted by David Droddy on Jul 30, 2008 at 10:51 PM
@David Droddy:
That's a cool blog which I'm gonna add to my bookmarks. I noticed at the bottom of the page there is a blog post about relationships and talking to your spouse about money. Very cool.
Posted by CoolJJ on Jul 31, 2008 at 8:33 AM
@David,
Thank you for the kind words. Who knows, maybe one day I can formalize my thoughts into a fixed volume :)
Posted by Ben Nadel on Jul 31, 2008 at 8:36 AM
Here are my questions...
1. I would like to know if someone can find a women or especially a group of women who agree to the concepts laid out in the original post.
2. How long have they practiced this routine with regularity and consistency? (Of course asking the same question of the guys who believe in it would be interesting also.)
3. Do those who achieved both 1 and 2 above feel after 3 or more months that this is a big help, a problem... or what is your take?
(end questions)
Part of what makes a relationship work in many cases is we are looking for someone who will get to know us so well they don't have to be told. We are looking for people who not only don't have to be told but are not assuming wrong things about us. It is also common that people like to share experiences. Most of all we like to share the things we enjoy knowing someone else enjoyed not just us but sharing those things also. Common interests and individual personality that doesn't harshly cut against our ethical grain is something we all appreciate. We enjoy someone with integrity when there is not a different outlook from ours.
Now for reality... if we just need to find someone with a vision and character then could the CEO of Ford have a lasting relationship with a life long peace core worker? Perhaps, but asking routine questions might not be the glue to bring it together. Both of these people may have 'personalities' that attract one another. They are both compulsive to the degree that they sacrifice for life goals and visions. Yet, in this case the visions are in conflict. I say it is possible for this relationship to work but with humanity it will be unlikely to rise to the occasion.
I do believe asking those questions or others can be appropriate in seasons. My thought is the questions we should ask (and shouldn't) will change from relationship to relationship, from season to season. It's like the old adage that we need to be clean shaven, wear a white shirt, dark suit and certain type of tie to be successful. We have learned that 'business think' put bad people in charge of good people to often. Sometimes it worked, but it took the personality out of the work force. At work and in our search for friends and mates personality is very important. We ought to develop the personality of our mates. And I am not of necessity saying the 'routine questions' would always work against that. That is what the three questions are for above. To move the theory into statistical evaluation. After all, wouldn't we want to evaluate business concepts to make sure they had a real ROI? :)
Posted by John Farrar on Aug 9, 2008 at 9:35 AM
I guess the logical question to ask after reading your profound insight on relationships is.....Are you single?
Posted by Lvlyheart on Sep 25, 2008 at 2:51 PM
@Lvlyheart, Married to one wife for over 20 years. We have a large family and we are not without flaws. I am not sure personal experience at making something work by sticking with it and letting each other learn is more valid to be classified as 'profound'. We have a large number of children which means we often are asked questions perhaps because we survive the crucible of dealing with those challenges. We didn't get it all right the first time... but we did hang on to each other and we are getting better. My point is that we have experience talking to others who also have struggled but choose to hang on through rough times also untill things were generally sweet from day to day. (Of course again, nothing is perfect all the time... lol.) Hope that answers your question.
Posted by John Farrar on Sep 25, 2008 at 3:28 PM
